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Technical Oil catch can

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Technical Oil catch can

The Panda Nut

The Panda Nut

Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
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I want to deal with the sludge in the twin air. I have been thinking of a catch can to increase air flow assuming there is a breather and wonder if this might improve things. Even after 600 miles mostly at 70+mph the problem persists and if fact seems worse. I could scoop out enough sludge easily to fill an egg cup and there is the mayo running off the filler cap threads. Any comments or condemnation welcomed!
 
The Panda Nut said:
I want to deal with the sludge in the twin air. I have been thinking of a catch can to increase air flow assuming there is a breather and wonder if this might improve things. Even after 600 miles mostly at 70+mph the problem persists and if fact seems worse. I could scoop out enough sludge easily to fill an egg cup and there is the mayo running off the filler cap threads. Any comments or condemnation welcomed!
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I think you engine need a strong workout, it looks like it's not getting to work very hard, with the above result/problems.
 
Hi.
If the coolant thermostat is partially open and not closing properly then the engine will run too cool and mayo and sludge will build up. Adding a catch tank won't help if that's the problem. Also very short runs, lack of oil changes, or very cold ambient temperature can cause this.
 
murphyv310 said:
Hi.
If the coolant thermostat is partially open and not closing properly then the engine will run too cool and mayo and sludge will build up. Adding a catch tank won't help if that's the problem. Also very short runs, lack of oil changes, or very cold ambient temperature can cause this.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your thoughts. I had not considered a thermostat issue but the way this car gets driven and especially the last 1500 miles pretty well rules it out as a factor. It has done only very hard motorway miles with no quarter being given and all miles been covered at an average shall we say of 70mph although that may possibly be an understatement.... It is serviced dead on book and was chemically flushed at the last oil change a few weeks back. After 900 miles of high speed motorway driving it is worse than ever.

I don't think the thermostat is dodgy as it warms up after about 3 miles and holds normal on the gauge, but what you suggest is an interesting line of enquiry. I will check the radiator inlet and outlet temperature tomorrow though. It was fine until about 13500 miles and then developed the yellow slime and white waxy crap in the oil filler tube. Three separate dealers have said they think its normal and better than many engines of type. It does not appear that anyone else on here suffers the same issues though. One way or the other I will not own it in a few weeks so it will be someone else's headache if it fails.. The new one will have a 125000 mile warranty! That way I can have a stress free 5 years of driving. However if the price takes a hike due to EU tariffs I will pull out of that deal and buy somethings from a non EU supplier so fast they won't even see me go. Here is hoping we get an extension to EU member ship as a month would see the new car delivered! What bugs me is I don't like the unexplained. The money and time I spend on keeping cars in perfect working order means this sort of problem is just plain unacceptable. The fuss they make about oil grades and change intervals suggests if this is 'normal' there is a fundamental flaw in the design of this engine. I have offered them the opportunity to explain why and how its normal face to face at the factory. Unsurprisingly they have not responded.
 
The Panda Nut said:
... The fuss they make about oil grades and change intervals suggests if this is 'normal' there is a fundamental flaw in the design of this engine. I have offered them the opportunity to explain why and how its normal face to face at the factory. Unsurprisingly they have not responded.
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I think the fact that FIat is doing all it can to stop using the TA engine shows it has 'not met expectations' in several ways! The latest WLTP emissions and economy test (showing a real world figure of 37mpg in the 4x4) are the last nail in its coffin. It hangs on in the 4x4 and Cross, but not used in any other Pandas, and was dropped from the 500 too (although I think back now on some trim levels)
 
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The Panda Nut said:
Thanks for your thoughts. I had not considered a thermostat issue but the way this car gets driven and especially the last 1500 miles pretty well rules it out as a factor. It has done only very hard motorway miles with no quarter being given and all miles been covered at an average shall we say of 70mph although that may possibly be an understatement.... It is serviced dead on book and was chemically flushed at the last oil change a few weeks back. After 900 miles of high speed motorway driving it is worse than ever.

I don't think the thermostat is dodgy as it warms up after about 3 miles and holds normal on the gauge, but what you suggest is an interesting line of enquiry. I will check the radiator inlet and outlet temperature tomorrow though. It was fine until about 13500 miles and then developed the yellow slime and white waxy crap in the oil filler tube. Three separate dealers have said they think its normal and better than many engines of type. It does not appear that anyone else on here suffers the same issues though. One way or the other I will not own it in a few weeks so it will be someone else's headache if it fails.. The new one will have a 125000 mile warranty! That way I can have a stress free 5 years of driving. However if the price takes a hike due to EU tariffs I will pull out of that deal and buy somethings from a non EU supplier so fast they won't even see me go. Here is hoping we get an extension to EU member ship as a month would see the new car delivered! What bugs me is I don't like the unexplained. The money and time I spend on keeping cars in perfect working order means this sort of problem is just plain unacceptable. The fuss they make about oil grades and change intervals suggests if this is 'normal' there is a fundamental flaw in the design of this engine. I have offered them the opportunity to explain why and how its normal face to face at the factory. Unsurprisingly they have not responded.
Click to expand...

Hi.
Thanks for the explanation. There are a couple of things that come to mind and may or may not help.

Firstly dues the car use any coolant, do you need to top it up?

Secondly if you have access to an ELM Bluetooth dongle an android phone install "Torque" from the play store and monitor the coolant temperature, its very accurate as it monitors the reading from the coolant sensor that the ECU uses for fuelling when cold and the bargraph temperature readout. I'd be looking for around 90c normal running temperature, if its low between 75-80c its too cool and most likely the reason.

I know its a different engine but on my 1.2 four squares appear on the readout at 74c and remain with the fully warmed up temperature of 92c. I've never had five squares.
 
murphyv310 said:
Hi.
Thanks for the explanation. There are a couple of things that come to mind and may or may not help.

Firstly dues the car use any coolant, do you need to top it up?

Secondly if you have access to an ELM Bluetooth dongle an android phone install "Torque" from the play store and monitor the coolant temperature, its very accurate as it monitors the reading from the coolant sensor that the ECU uses for fuelling when cold and the bargraph temperature readout. I'd be looking for around 90c normal running temperature, if its low between 75-80c its too cool and most likely the reason.

I know its a different engine but on my 1.2 four squares appear on the readout at 74c and remain with the fully warmed up temperature of 92c. I've never had five squares.
Click to expand...

No the coolant is fine and the dealer has pressure tested the system. The car runs well so I would be surprised if it turned out to be the head gasket. I have seen porous alloy components before though so I wonder if there is actually something of this nature going on.

I can test temp with multi ECU and I also have an industrial calibrated thermometer but I might try your idea as it will be easier to monitor on the road. Just seems crazy to be experiencing this on a new car. We have three other cars and they all get the same use and treatment none of the others do it! I wanted this car to last for 10 years so changing after just over two is financially unacceptable. My big concern is running a high stress turbo engine with less than 100% oil condition as the car is subject to long runs at high speed / revs on a reasonably regular basis being poorly lubricated is I suspect going to have dire consequences. Oil after all is designed to be separate from water.

At the present its been diagnosed as normal so if it blows up Fiat can pay for an entire rebuild as its still under warranty. I am very very nervous about buying another though!!
 
Hi.
The fact that the coolant doesn't drop and the system has been pressure tested would discount head gaskets or porosity in the head. All that's left is low running temperature or something in the breather like a partial blockage. If other TA engines don't have this issue your engine has an issue that Fiat need to fix. Perhaps get an independent engineers report.
 
I've had a twin air cross from new, and ours has always had a bit of mayo under the oil cap. It's also used a bit of oil from new, so just assumed it was a standard feature! :D

Nothing untoward has happened in 70k miles, so I'm just gonna keep on truckin!
 
Last edited:
murphyv310 said:
Hi.
The fact that the coolant doesn't drop and the system has been pressure tested would discount head gaskets or porosity in the head. All that's left is low running temperature or something in the breather like a partial blockage. If other TA engines don't have this issue your engine has an issue that Fiat need to fix. Perhaps get an independent engineers report.
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I am waiting on a new one and hope this goes bang in a cloud of smoke as soon as its PX'd.. It does just suit me to change but I am still very unhappy. If I can work out how to post phots I will put up a pic of the 2011 1.2 used hardly at all and only for short runs and the oil cap of my TA which is now being driver with vigour and you can see the former oil cap is perfect and the latter not so.. It still does not look right to me. Its going to cost me 4 grand to find out... At least I will be back with a new warranty.
 
AndyK said:
I've had a twin air cross from new, and ours has always had a bit of mayo under the oil cap. It's also used a bit of oil from new, so just assumed it was a standard feature! :D

Nothing untoward has happened in 70k miles, so I'm just gonna keep on truckin!
Click to expand...

Thanks for this at least it goes some way to confirming the dealer comments. Mine runs really well but I don't want emulsion slime lubricating my turbo when its spinning at 120,000 rpm. They make such a damn great fuss about the grade of oil but accept it can be full of emulsion. This makes no sense to me I will be more relaxed with the new one if your is still OK at 70,000. Thanks
 
Hi.
Some engines do have small deposits of "mayo" on the filler cap. This phenomenon occurs on a cool part of the engine, often on the filler cap and top of the cam or rocker cover. It is normal to have some of the products of combustion make their way into the sump oil and when the oil get hot the condensation will make its way round the the spaces inside the engine and this will condensate onto cool parts as above. Now the breather "should" allow this to be drawn back into the intake and burned in the cylinders. Now think back to some engines that had a rather rudimentary breather, the ford 1197cc Cortina and Anglia super engine was a sludger, the Imp got bad "mayo" and some of the Audi/VW 1.6 OHC 8v engines did this too. I believe that Ford blamed short runs or lack of oil changes, that may have been a contributing factor but the design of the breather was most likely the issue.

I'd say on the TA I would most like try halving the oil change times and try the oil catch tank as it will catch water too, I use one with a small breather filter that vents to air, this may allow condensate to vent to air when the engine stops after a run. A tiny amount of moisture in the oil won't kill the engine and modern oils are made in such a way that tiny amounts wont cause it to sludge and thicken.
 
murphyv310 said:
Hi.
Some engines do have small deposits of "mayo" on the filler cap.
Click to expand...

Anyone remember the Vauxhall Viva and Chevette (unkindly nick named Shove it). The smaller pushrod engines had a steel rocker cover and a very high mounted engine driven fan. In cold weather particularly, the rocker cover stayed so cold because the fan was pulling air over it, you could scoop the "mayo" out by the spoonful! One of our customers was so upset about it (our boss himself had sold him the car from our used stock) that he contacted Vauxhall about it and they sent a kit that was supposed to "cure" it. We all had a bit of a laugh about it because it was basically a small wind deflector which fixed to the top two water pump bolts in an attempt to stop the fan blowing cold air over the cover. It didn't do much good but it was interesting to see that next time we saw the car for service the chap had glued insulating felt to the outside of the rocker cover. We all gathered round as our workmate removed the cover - and, guess what? - No mayo! It must have kept things hot enough to stop any condensation. Next time we saw the car was just prior to it being sold and the apprentice got the horrible job of removing all the, by now very moth eaten looking felt.
 
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