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Old 1 Week Ago   #16
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

Quote Originally Posted by quotethepigeon View Post
They should spend more money teaching and enforcing better driving standards rather than compensate for bad drivers by the way of gadgets.
^^ This. Cars are the safest things in the world until a human gets behind the wheel...
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Old 1 Week Ago   #17
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

Quote Originally Posted by SB1500 View Post

I saw a Volvo S90, apparently the best performing car ever tested
Count to ten, spin around three times and look again.
By then this will also be 0*.

As the tests move on and safety devices evolve, all older models will lag behind.
This model Panda broke cover in Sept 2011, so it's over 7 years old and nearing the end of it's life. (truth be told, it's probably past it in model life terms)

Can you imagine the results if they retested the 169? There are still plenty of them about on the roads.
The results would likely suggest running the wrong way down the motorway with a paper bag on your head would be safer, but they haven't so no one can make a story about it's results.

True they've done sweet FA to the current model over the years to improve it, but you can't really think they'll do much to it any time soon.
Maybe the City Brake option might become standard on higher end trim, other than that they'll just let it die as they did the Punto, I doubt it'll be tested again before a new model appears so anything they do will be more marketing than test based results.

The worry would be if any new model test results are low, but we already know they will be one day.

As for the question if crash mitigation systems are worth it or does driver skill need to increase?
Probably a bit of both.
If you consider if every car on the road had some sort of emergency braking system, it evens thing out much better than the impossible of trying even out the driving standards, as you can probably improve them, but with anything human involved, we aren't going to get there, there's just to many variables.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #18
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

Iíve never bought a car based on itís NCAP rating, nor given any consideration to it. Seeing this latest twaddle from NCAP reinforces my view.
Lane Assist on my Jag XE lasted half way home on day 1 until being switched off permanently.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #19
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

If you look at the images/videos and ratings of similar sized cars or from a similar price bracket aka, Suzuki Celerio, Dacia Sandero and VW triplets, itís hard not to see how these cars today would also fail to make the grade. Itís seems to be unfairly biased against Fiat. All a car really needs is a good solid structure, a few air bags, well designed seats to ward off whiplash and ABS. All the other modern fripperies suggest that humans are incapable of taking the necessary preventive steps to avoid an accident. All this additional tech just adds to the price on what is already an expensive object that depreciates fast.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #20
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

The Panda is no less safe than it was before; itís the scale of measurement that has changed, not the car. Why canít some people see that. The media just want to sell their product and to hell with the damage and confusion it causes to others.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #21
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

Lane assist, adaptive cruise control and auto-park are all really useful where I live... well they would be if we had some straight roads (adaptive cruise needs to see the car in front) with white lines (Lane assist confusingly doesn't work on "real" lanes), and kerbs lining the roads (park assist fails miserably unless there is a kerb, or at least a significant grass verge).
Not entirely sure of the benefits of auto-braking on rural lanes either, even if the car is being driven really badly by a complete knob with no driving skills - I'd be surprised if it can react to avoid deer who behave in unexpected ways, e.g. sometimes overtaking a car in their urge to get hit by it.
(I'll just sit and wait to get flamed by someone who doesn't get irony now...)
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Old 1 Week Ago   #22
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

NCAP want us all to drive curry wurst cars....well so it seems...
Fiat looks like they dying out

We have had strange breaking incidents here due to brake "assist" interventions.....
I know a guy who has a BMW, it thought it saw something and started to break for no reason on a country road.....the whole family hanging in their seatbelts.....

After that little incident he turned that dratted thing off....

Anyways....what will the future bring??
Not gonna buy any German car ever...we had our share of VW...never ever again...and Audi...do not get me started

I also get a hard time over my 2011 GP....why do you drive that pile of .... well it always works and is fun on its own terms...plus I like the simplicity of it....
Todays benchmarks is having as many gizmos as possible...
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Old 1 Week Ago   #23
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

TL;DR: the new test takes mostly moot points and applies them to the argument nobody is making in the first place (taking a 7 year old car and applying new, inapplicable standards to a use-case that rarely exists).

Semantically speaking, the Panda is no less safe than it was when it was first produced and tested since the vehicle hasn't changed. What has changed is what is considered 'safe'.

The emphasis on electronic driving aids is a double edged sword, because it's actually a numbers game. If auto emergency braking, for example, reduces the probability of an accident (which it statistically does), it is deemed worth the effort of implementing. This, in turn, introduces an element of reliance on that technology (in other words a reduction in driving attentiveness) which may or may not have been a factor in the probable accident in the first place. The fact that we can't know for sure means that it's mathematically sound to have such technology. As a counterexample of a similar situation, even the most attentive driver doing 5 below the inner city speed limit won't be able to account for dumb little children with no concept of mass, force, stopping distance etc. who's parents have not yet instilled a fear for life by properly teaching pedestrian safety. These kids (who are usually just around visible height from a driving position) will dash out from in between parked cars at any point in the road without looking anywhere and no amount of driving prowess, attention or auto emergency city braking can do anything about that impact. That's where pedestrian safety standards come into play, because as much as we love our children, they're little bags of meat and bones just like us, but with less awareness and little to no notion of consequence. This is usually the thinking behind pedestrian safety standards, and the statistics to justify it are actually more about drivers failing to yield to pedestrian right-of-way points such as junctions and crossings (so the math tells us it's usually the drivers doing the hitting rather than the pedestrians doing the walking in front of cars).

Lastly, as many on the forum know, fitting a child seat to the rear of the Panda is a faff. Fitting a pram into the boot is also a faff, especially as prams and baby carriages and seats get larger (ironically also usually for safety). If you've ever tried to fold and fit a newer model of a baby carriage into the boot of the Panda, then tried to use the carriage section to move the child into the back seat using the isoFix mounts, you'll know that two things happen: First, the damn thing either won't or will barely fit into the boot leaving no room for the baby bag, which you have to move to the rear seat (which is an accident hazard as it's unsecured cargo). Then you spend a good half minute with the door open trying to secure the seat to the mounts, during which the child gets irritated and starts complaining. This results in the inability to make any swift progress with a child, as setting off in the first place becomes an ordeal. This situation is not unique to the Panda, and is a common issue on many small city cars, which is why they are called 'small city car' and not 'family car' or some other nomenclature that would indicate otherwise. In turn, one of the first things who own city cars do when they have a child is to get a bigger vehicle. By the time the child is 7-10 years old (the age at which the dummies in the test represent), most people who haven't moved to a larger vehicle have felt the need to do so for some time as not only has the little human grown in size, but so has the size of and amount of things they tend to require (such as the introduction of backpacks, sports equipment, school projects, multiple friends of various denominations of length and girth). Sure, living with a Panda with offspring is 'doable', just as wearing shoes a half size too small is 'doable'. The Panda will do it all, just not as good as it could (or should), and the shoe will still protect your feet but at the end of the day you'll wonder whether it was worth the cost.

So, as you can probably deduce, the electronics and pedestrian emphasis on the test is as much political and legislative as it is awkward. In the United States, the rising belt line on newer vehicles (for side impact safety, ironically) and the introduction of rollover testing has resulted in vehicles you simply can't see out the back of, which resulted in children getting run over by their parents as they back out of the garage or driveway. Someone showed some politicians a few numbers, and now all new cars sold in America are required to have a back up camera from 2019 onward. Basically, a solution to a problem that was created by a solution to another problem has been driven by skewed mathematics and a poor understanding of systems design/process management. I won't be surprised if electronic aids become legally required around the world in the near future, and even if they currently aren't, the public perception created by the aforementioned skewed statistics means that manufacturers will have to follow suit whether they are legally required to or not. The other key area in which the Panda has been deemed 'less safe than before' is a point with little real-world consequence to most Panda owners, unless they enjoy the torture of using a small city car as a people-mover, in which case they would be no better off in pretty much any other city car for the most part.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #24
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

The bit in the Thatcham research commentary video on the result where the supposedly independent guy says 'don't buy a Panda, buy a second-hand Ibiza' is a bit depressing. An Ibiza is a much bigger car anyway, it's hardly a fair comparison.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #25
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

Still remember Euro N Cap buying the woman's Saab after she hit an Elk at some speed and survived. Am sure they'd condemn a similar car now but I wouldn't call it unsafe. Things move on.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #26
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

That recommendation to buy a second hand Ibiza is about as relevant as a tech journalist telling people to buy second hand Windows computers with newer components rather than the (now renewed but previously abysmally outdated) MacBook Air or Mac Mini. In a similar vein, why buy a second hand Ibiza when you can have a new i10 for the same money? Why buy a new Fiat 500 when you can have a 10 year old Mercedes S Class for the same money? What's the point of any such comparison?

Reminds me of this:
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Old 1 Week Ago   #27
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

Couldn't agree more with all the comments above - but what really grates for me is that this sort of comedy headline simply convinces the dim and timid to buy more near 3-tonne Ego Panzer's in which to take the kids to school. Just what the world today needs....
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Old 1 Week Ago   #28
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

Quote Originally Posted by Goudrons View Post
Maybe the City Brake option might become standard on higher end trim
I'm one of the few with this. Its greatest asset is blocking the sun 'tween the sun-blind gap.

Pulling onto a busy roundabout in Sheffield 'merging' into the traffic, as there's never a gap, you're inevitably close to the vehicle already on the roundabout (but not that close). What you do NOT want is for the brakes to suddenly jam on, whilst you brick it, wondering for a second what in the most holy kiss of chocolate just happened."I thought I'd disabled that".

In the end it'll make no difference to sales. These days, today's news would give its most precious organs to be even close to being tomorrow's chip-paper.

Ohh look........another tweet about someone who said something......
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Old 1 Week Ago   #29
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

I drive our Vitara with city brake around the most congested city in the country and it's no bother.

I also think some might condemn it without the first idea how it works.

It doesn't just slam the brakes on willy-nilly, it detects you closing in and if you haven't responded to the decreasing gap (started to brake, decelerate or move the car/sensor out of the way) it sounds/flashes a warning and pre loads the brakes ready for an emergency stop.

If you still fail to respond to that, it will then apply the brakes for you.

If you're a numpty and drive badly you'll hear/see it warning you all the time.
Drive like a idiot and ignore the warnings then it will slam the brakes on.

Drive normally, react as you should to traffic around you and you'll see/hear nothing and it won't touch the brakes unless something suddenly gets in your way that you have no chance of reacting to yourself.

Just think of it like an airbag, no one plans on using it for real, but if it comes to it, you're glad you have it and the chances of it's use are greater if you drive like a d*ckhead.



The bonus of this system on the Vitara is it uses the same system for cruise control.
Set the cruise and select the distance to the car in front (three settings), if the car in front slows so do you. Someone pulling into the gap in front and it brakes and maintains the gap.
Traffic suddenly comes to a stop and it's braking before you can even think about hitting the brakes yourself.
In fact when you leave the motorway and turn it off it's quite eerie, you feel a bit exposed.


Just imagine if every car involved in this
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-23970047
had one or both features, I doubt they'd be a story to link to.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #30
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

Quote Originally Posted by Goudrons View Post

I also think some might condemn it without the first idea how it works.
I remember exactly the same comments from people years ago when ABS was becoming a regular feature of everyday mainstream cars.

"i don't need no computer braking for me, I know exactly what i'm doing" or my personal favorite from someone I worked with in the 90's
"if it weren't for the ABS I wouldn't have crashed"

Now we don't think anything at all about ABS, fitted by law to all new cars for the last decade its just there and we never notice it.

In another 10 years all these features available now will be standard everyday things we don't give a second thought to.

As I've said in the other thread in the leisure lounge, the safest car is one that doesn't crash in the first place.

You can't really expect manufacturers to keep making cars stronger and stronger and dissipate the energy through the same mass. There comes a point that cars become either too big or too heavy to be practical.

All there electronics in cars is no different to whats going on in the computer world. You can't infinately make processors smaller and smaller so you just build in more cores to the computer's CPU.

Cars can't get stronger and stronger forever so you make them safe by other means, avoiding the crash in the first place or minimising the effects of the crash. So that the same car in the same crash but fitted with the electronics will be safer as it has slowed its self down earlier or taken some other evasive action to reduce the risk of harm.

No structually the Panda is no different from the car it was when it was launched in 2011, however all the other cars on the road have changed and are safer, have a crash with another newer car and the panda is not going to fair anywhere near as well as it would have done with another 2011 car.

I should also add, you could be the best driver in the world and lets face it there are not many people who don't think they are. but no matter how good a driver you are, it only takes one idiot on a bad day to crash into you and your family, I would rather that idiot was in a car that was able to stop it's self and override that driver's stupidity than rely solely on the strength and safety systems of my own car to protect me.
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