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Old 16-05-2016   #16
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

Nope, your car as a twin air is supposed to be run on Selenia Digitek PE, which is ACEA C2 and of 0w30 grade. Technical reference for that one is 9.55535-GS1
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Old 16-05-2016   #17
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

To assist people:

the 1.2 must be run on 5w40 ACEA C3 fully synthetic, this is Technical Reference classifcation 9.55535-S2 Selenia K Pure Energy

The Multijet is 5w30 ACEA C2, technical classification 9.55535-S, the oil is Selenia WR PE

The Twinair must be run on 0W-30 ACEA C2, Selenia Digitek PE, tech reference 9.55535-GS1

*NOTE some of the earlier twin air engines were run on Selenia 5W40 C3. As some of you on the forum will be aware there was a spate of engine failures and issues with lubrication which may have played a part so fiat have reduced the change interval and oil type to those above. While older cars still on 18k servicing and that the factory fill was 5w40 can continue to use this, most dealers and garages advice it is best practice to move to the 0W-30 and 9k servicing.
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Old 16-05-2016   #18
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

The whole thing of Fiat main dealers not using Selenia oil drives me mad & I think Fiat should insist the customer is told if the price doesn't include Selenia. Of the 5 Fiat dealers I've used over the years, 3 have automatically used Selenia (or at least that's what the invoice says), one has stated they don't but offered to use Selenia for an additional fee (fine as the prices with or without were v reasonable) & one has just used Shell Helix.

With my Parents 500 TwinAir, both dealers used Selenia K Pure Energy & we also topped up with the same (it only needed about 700ml in 3 years/34k though). It was a 12 plate so was on the old 2yr/18k interval but we got it done annually anyway. It's correct that the inspection interval is now 9000 miles or yearly, but be aware that this does not include a mandatory oil change until the 2nd year (bizarrely) - you have to pay extra in year 1 for the oil change - though you'd be mad not to pay the extra & get the oil changed (especially on a TwinAir or MultiAir engine) when you're already at the dealer for the inspection anyway.

My own car (Alfa MiTo 1.3 JTDm) has had annual oil changes under my ownership, but the main dealer used Shell Helix. I wasn't happy, but as they were otherwise v good & the invoice stated it was 5w30 (as instructed in the service manual) I didn't comment. Should I have?
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Old 16-05-2016   #19
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

Quote Originally Posted by Alexiloki View Post
To assist people:..
...While older cars still on 18k servicing and that the factory fill was 5w40 can continue to use this, most dealers and garages advice it is best practice to move to the 0W-30 and 9k servicing.
Strictly speaking the oil change intervals have not changed. Fiat require an annual 'inspection' every 9000 miles but the oil still gets changed at 18k intervals (and for the MJ, oil change happens when the 'change oil now' warning appears - again, no change from previous regime) - you are welcome to change more often, but don't have to to retain the warranty.

Interesting aside: check what oils Fiat recommends for its cars in the USA - this page for teh 500X but similar for others too - no mention of Selena but Shell Helix is on the list: http://www.fiat500usa.com/2015/08/fi...apacities.html

In the USA, Fiat are not allowed (by local law) to 'dictate' a brand of oil - only a spec. Check the details in the user manuals for teh Fiat 500 you can download here: http://www.fiatusa.com/en/owners/manuals/index.html
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Last edited by Herts Hillhopper; 16-05-2016 at 22:27.
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Old 16-05-2016   #20
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

This thread is confirmation, if it were needed, that Fiat couldn't organise a p*ss-up in a trattoria.
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Old 16-05-2016   #21
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

Quote Originally Posted by Alexiloki View Post
Hello all,

Just a cautionary bit of advice for you. As some of you may have seen me mention, I am a lubricant research engineer. Basically I work for a worldwide corperation, testing both our current and future lubricants against manufacturer's specifications and comparing out products to the competition on paper, but also in lab and real world conditions.

My sister has decided to sell her Panda and asked me to go over the service history, paperwork and invoices with her, in which I found that the dealer group she uses (which I think is the largest in the country) has been filling her car with Shell Helix Ultra each time it has been serviced.

First of all, I'm not slating this product, it is a quality engine oil. However it does not meet 9.55535-S2, nor does it fit ACEA C3, which is the required spec for factory and service fill for the 500, panda and most of the fiat range, regardless of 1.2 or twinair.

I have done a little digging and contacted multiple dealers within the chain who all said that oil is what they use as service fill if your car is taken in. Seems to be a company wide thing. I also contacted Fiat UK who stated very very clearly that if engine damage occurs which is in any way attributable to the oil used, the warranty is invalidated due to the use of oils not fitting the fiat technical standard.

Basically the short and curly of the situation is check your service invoices now and in future. Only one version of Helix Ultra fits this standard which is AT-L, regardless of professional or over the counter versions and none of the dealers I spoke to (11 of them) use this version. Even if they do, it is not a Fiat approved oil, shell just says it meets the standard. I know, I've done testing on the stuff! And If your dealer is filling with these products, question it.

Sorry if this seems a bit OTT but consider the cost if your engine goes bang or suffers a fault and Fiat Technical requests a oil sample - which they often do and then find the oil doesn't satisfy the spec. That bill is now on you and so are any in future. Bye bye warranty!

The only oils to my awareness that fit the specifications and have been tested and certified to do so are Castrol Edge titanium and Petronas Selenia in multiple guises, both have it in black and white on the bottles of the relevant oil that they meet and exceed these specs, and have the technical specifications numbers on the label. If they do not, they are old stock or a different grade. Both are certified as service fill and the Selenia is the factory fill for our vehicles.

It's deeply frustrating to think that lot of us pay a fair chunk of money for our cars to be looked after by the main dealer, and if I found they put my warranty and my engine, EGR, Sensors and cat at risk by using the wrong grade of oil, there is a fair chance I would be down there with a pickaxe handle 😐
If we are taking them out of the dealer network and into indepenants or are out of warranty, that's a different story where lack of info or bulletins can come into it. I don't expect it from a franchised dealer who charge a fair wedge for the privilege of using them.

Also: The other Shell Helix oil that 'fits' the required specification is Helix HX7 ECT. However this is not a fully synthetic oil as fiat/alfa states is required, it's is semi synthetic, and while it is stated that this oil attains the requirements of ACEA C3 and 9.55535-S2 it has not been approved or tested by fiat and only fits the spec on paper. Also Castrol Magnatec C3 claims to meet the spec but neither Castrol nor Fiat can confirm that it is certified and tested to do so. Minefield out there!
A lubricant engineer is a good contact to have then !
It seems like I am not mad then to use genuine fiat selina oil and change it and the filter every 3,000 miles, my friends think I am mad and say oil is oil but you have just confirmed what I always thought .
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Old 17-05-2016   #22
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

Quote Originally Posted by Michael Dranfield View Post
A lubricant engineer is a good contact to have then !
It seems like I am not mad then to use genuine fiat selina oil and change it and the filter every 3,000 miles, my friends think I am mad and say oil is oil but you have just confirmed what I always thought .
3000 mile changes are a waste of money and finite resources (unless you are driving in very dusty conditions). 9000 miles is twice recomendations, 6000 miles would be extremly conservative. What do you think you are acheiving with a 3000 mile serice over 9000 or 6000? It could be argued that the two extra starts without the oil system primed (do you prime the filter?) causes more damage than running for the extra 6000 miles on "old" oil.
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Old 17-05-2016   #23
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

I have changed oil and oil filter every 3,000 miles on every car I have had for the last 30 years, and yes I do fill up the oil filter with fresh oil before screwing it on , its surprising how much oil actually dissapears into the oil filter when you pour it in .
3,000 miles for my cars is only about a years use, my Doblo is 13 years old and only covered 44,000 miles.
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Old 17-05-2016   #24
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

This is interesting - I am still good for another 5 months on my warranty and I'm looking at changing the oil myself and probably swallowing the 'loss' of self servicing - but as I am a very experienced push bike mechanic I feel that I'm pretty well versed with all manor of spannering etc, but what I don't want to do is ruin the car by using the wrong products with my home handywork.

I am going to order an official Fiat oil filter, and was planning on using Castrol Titanium Fully Syn, as it seems to be available for 30-40 for 4 ltrs and seems to also be the top end of oils.

I'm wondering how much I may be stung by the dealer I have the HP with when it possible comes to trading the car in, by not getting the car serviced with them, but as it goes I'm not hearing great things about official Fiat garages and in particular my local one too so I'm not sure it means anything really as I will save however much each service.

So it sounds like Castrol Titanium would be suitable but still not fully covered by warranty?

Also - OP - I have recently bought into Faher Chain oils for my bike shop I work at, and they offer engine oil additives which have a very impressive demonstration in which it greatly reduces friction under heavy load, would this be an advisable thing to use? I've been told by the rep that it's very popular within the classic car service industry but it's not all that well known in the UK despite it being very popular in Spain/Portugal where it originates from. (Can provide links if you're interested in looking into it)
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Last edited by PandaMTB; 17-05-2016 at 01:38.
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Old 17-05-2016   #25
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

If the car doesn't have a full service history it can affect its value, regardless of which dealer your change it at tbh.

As for the oil, if it is a 1.2 then castrol edge titanium 5w40, with the correct reference on the back, then it is a approved oil.

I would recommend however do not use oil additives at any time. Many reasons, I have seen the evidence of the damage they can do, they are expensive, they can affect performance, and can cause more problems then you may think. Fiat is also unequivocal in their stance, no fuel or oil additives should be used.

Modern oils work within very tight tolerances under high strain, all while having high temperature stability, high film strength and sludge control, any additives can interact with the oils, cause excessive wear, damage bearings, block filters and oil ways, damage emission equipment and invalidate your warranty. Not worth it
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Old 17-05-2016   #26
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

Quote Originally Posted by Herts Hillhopper View Post
Strictly speaking the oil change intervals have not changed. Fiat require an annual 'inspection' every 9000 miles but the oil still gets changed at 18k intervals (and for the MJ, oil change happens when the 'change oil now' warning appears - again, no change from previous regime) - you are welcome to change more often, but don't have to to retain the warranty.

Interesting aside: check what oils Fiat recommends for its cars in the USA - this page for teh 500X but similar for others too - no mention of Selena but Shell Helix is on the list: http://www.fiat500usa.com/2015/08/fi...apacities.html

In the USA, Fiat are not allowed (by local law) to 'dictate' a brand of oil - only a spec. Check the details in the user manuals for teh Fiat 500 you can download here: http://www.fiatusa.com/en/owners/manuals/index.html
To a extent yes, however Fiat do not dictate that you must use a particular brand, more that any brand you do use conforms to the correct specifications and approvals, which most do not.

In regards to the oil changes, there is some unusual issues. Fiat says within the service bulletins that oil should be changed yearly especially if the vehicle is used for mostly urban driving or doesn't hit the service interval mileage on a annual basis. Also my owners manual says to change the oil and Filter on every service, some appear to have been updated.
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Old 17-05-2016   #27
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

Quote Originally Posted by Alexiloki View Post
Fiat says within the service bulletins that oil should be changed yearly especially if the vehicle is used for mostly urban driving or doesn't hit the service interval mileage on a annual basis. Also my owners manual says to change the oil and Filter on every service, some appear to have been updated.
My handbook says if the car is driven less than 6000 miles per year, the the oil should be changed annually - my garage tried to tell me my car (15k miles per year) needed an annual service. I asked Fiat, who replied in an email, that no, it was every 21k miles or two years ' (MJ engine). The garage backed down, realising they weren't getting extra income from me.

As to 'oil and filter changed every service' that is still correct - the interim 9000 mile 'inspection' is not really a service - just a lot of 'looking and checking'. I think this is actually to pick up things like brake pad wear rather than engine-related matters, which may have gone up to two years between visits otherwise. With a good synthetic oil (and regular longish journeys to get everything properly warmed up, drive off any water vapour, etc), 18k plus between oil changes should be perfectly possible. Surely that's why the oil industry invented long life, synthetic lubricants.

Back to the USA handbook - note there the recommendation for an oil change every 4500 miles if low use, and 10k miles otherwise. Why so different to the European recommendations? More cautious? Or a 'cultural' thing.
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Old 17-05-2016   #28
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

Quote Originally Posted by Herts Hillhopper View Post
<SNIP>
Back to the USA handbook - note there the recommendation for an oil change every 4500 miles if low use, and 10k miles otherwise. Why so different to the European recommendations? More cautious? Or a 'cultural' thing.
Culture driven by commercial interests. The speedy oil change companies spread FUD about it and profit accordingly. Califoria have run campaigns to change the public attitude on this wasteful practice.

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Old 17-05-2016   #29
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

Quote Originally Posted by g8rpi View Post
Culture driven by commercial interests. The speedy oil change companies spread FUD about it and profit accordingly. Califoria have run campaigns to change the public attitude on this wasteful practice.

Robert G8RPI.
This seems to prove that - and show that there is a slow drive to ween US drivers off the unnecessary oil changes: http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/stop...-your-oil.html
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Old 18-05-2016   #30
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

Quote Originally Posted by Michael Dranfield View Post
I have changed oil and oil filter every 3,000 miles on every car I have had for the last 30 years
Continuing to do something to validate past behaviour is one of the most limiting things I know of.

Both engines and oils have evolved in the past 30 years; what might have been an appropriate servicing regime for 1986 is not necessarily appropriate today (and we'd made it to 6k service intervals by then).
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