PS to the above:

Natural Power was the gas powered version. As far as I know the specs for my car are the ones under the '03 year version. and my ecu spec is shown there as an option.

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

Anyway, I'm having a lovely time "tinkering", learning a lot about using MES as I do it and having some very interesting conversations with Grant at Gendan who is very keen to know how things turn out. If I find out anything concrete which might be of interest I'll make a post about it in the "Tech" section - but don't hold your breath will you.
Thanks again
Jock

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So Jock you are now the "Expert"

There is actually no real substitute for "hands on education and experience"!

s130 said:

So Jock you are now the "Expert"

There is actually no real substitute for "hands on education and experience"!

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Thanks s130, but I don't believe in experts. Experience has taught me they can be very dangerous! There are however some who know more than others? - Perhaps I'm beginning to get into that "country"?

"Hands on education and experience" Hang on, wasn't that called an apprenticeship? Not to be confused with today's "modern apprenticeships"? Or am I too much of a cynic?

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

"Hands on education and experience" Hang on, wasn't that called an apprenticeship? Not to be confused with today's "modern apprenticeships"? Or am I too much of a cynic?

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That is why I did a Sandwich Degree in Electrical & Electronic Engineering. 4 years of education AND "industrial training" (as it was called then) at Atomic Energy Authority Harwell.

And (tongue in cheek) "ExSpurt" = "as was once upon a time" and "spurt as in only occasionally"

s130 said:

You mention running "open loop" appears to be OK. This would suggest to me that basically the system is sound (i.e. no air leaks, lack of compression, etc) and the ECU is responding/operating on delivered sensor information and/or out of adjustment values.

I'll hold my hand up very high and say that what I've posted is probably no different or an enhancement on what you have already concluded but is still a little confirmation of your/our current think.

MES is able to graph all "measurement" values. So one could go back to real basics and graph some values. Engine power is basically dictated by fuel delivery, air intake, temperature and other similar factors. Take a look at the list of parameters that MES has to offer and rule out immediate "not relevant" ones (A/C Compressor, Odometer, Universal Code, etc.

Sorry not an ideal response but hopefully an encouraging one?

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Just re-reading your post here and I find it encouraging that we seem to be thinking along similar lines I think? Which is to say that most likely a sensor is feeding slightly incorrect values to the ECU? All the "easy stuff" - engine temp, O2 sensor outputs, etc seem to be doing what you would expect (although I did get distracted trying to understand what you might expect the Post Cat O2 sensor to be doing - posted about that somewhere else - of course it was a bit of a distraction because in most systems the post cat O2 sensor is only "interested" in notifying Cat failure and lighting the MIL to alert.)

My current obsession is with the MAP sensor - which I think feeds it's info to MES as "Intake Pressure"? The problem is that I don't know what values I should expect it to display (although logically it should display a high value at idle and very low value on a snap throttle opening). I've found several you tube videos showing how to check it using a vacuum pump (wanted one of those for a while - got a good excuse now!) whilst monitoring the signal voltage. I haven't even removed the MAP from the engine yet and it may be that it just needs a good clean - I believe they accumulate deposits on their business end?

Anyway, more fun to be had doing that.

Must go now as one of my grandchilren is having a birthday celebration this afternoon and we are buying the cake. Hopefully the weather will hold so we can all (small number of relatives) stay in the garden.

I had all sorts of hassle installing MES but I made the mistake of following instructions that came with my OBD connector. Basically just download and install BEFORE connecting the OBD thingy. Job done.

I had further hassle because my car developed a fuse box fault which left the OBD port without power. No power at the port means MES does nothing so being a new install I thought it was the computer.


I do plan to put it on an old Samsung netbook running XP and keeping it for MES only. That could mean some fun and games, installing drivers, etc.

DaveMcT said:

I had further hassle because my car developed a fuse box fault which left the OBD port without power. No power at the port means MES does nothing so being a new install I thought it was the computer.

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Nasty one that's difficult to understand. Similar happened to me with the VAG stuff. My old Cordoba 1.9 TDI started acting up with being difficult to start. Plugged in the VAG-COM (VCDS as it is now) and it came up "unable to connect" Just couldn't get my head round it so went and asked the Lads at AVW who said "it's almost certainly the 109 relay"! - I took the chance and fitted a new one and immediately she stopped playing up. I stripped the old relay's plastic cover off and could easily see that the points were quite burnt so obviously sometimes the connection was being made and other times not. When the connection was not made the system was dead so that's why the scanner refused to connect. All of which goes to prove that experience is everything.

I had all sorts of hassle finding the fault - engine would not start then one day it just did. Every fuse was pulled and tested. Every relay was pulled and tested all were ok. I still have a non-working screen wash pump (both ends) but not had chance to chase the fault.

I wonder which relay on the Panda is equivalent to the VW's 109.

DaveMcT said:

I wonder which relay on the Panda is equivalent to the VW's 109.

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What a good question Dave. Another one to add to the "to do" list before it becomes a "must do".

I'm thinking the relay that isn't driving my washer pump might have been the one that didn't drive my OBD port. Still not sorted. Other stuff to do.

Still banging my head with my sons Grande mj..

it runs beautifully..

But stinks of fumes

EGR was obviously bodged and leaking soot

After a LOT of messing around.. no progress.. :idea: blanking plate

Drove the same.. still stunk

But put A MIL on the dash

A litte perplexed..as the car is Early tech.. is it another fault..?

Plugged in my scanner.. NO FAULTS..!!

It is supposedly adaptive..and will clear faults after '3 clean starts' light still on a week later..

I found 10 minutes:

Scanner : no faults found
MES : 5 FAULTS found

I think we have a winner

2xEGR
1x glow plug

1 brake switch+ 1 lighting

Bottom 2 are BCM.. so scanner wouldnt see them

But glow circuit should still be 'engine'

Odd how this 'good device' found nothing.. it has worked well on VAG cars in the family + friends car pool

1st time I have seen such a marked failure.. we know it 'can happen'
But I thought that was on 'niche' applications.. not fundamentals

varesecrazy

Also check the diesel return pipes as they might be weeping due to age (assuming it's a diesel) hence the fuel smell. Or possibly the fuel tank breather/overflow tube.

Pretty sure its exhaust fumes..

And I have the airbox off on a 'daily basis..'

Never seen any hint of damp around the rail or injectors..

Really annoying.

If it was worth money I would get a garage to look.. but they didnt spot any issues at the point of 1st trouble

10 months ago

Rear door seals or maybe there's a hole in the boot floor which could let in fumes from the exhaust. Also bung up the exhaust pipe outlet and look for where gasses escape (though I guess you've already done that).

Somebody jogged my memory..

Intercooler -air in feed often get a 'breather line' fed back in

Fair chance thats related..


First look this evening..

Plasticky hose to the manifold.. seemed sound..

Steel tube ..RUSTY (think FIRE coolant tube..)

BOTH were sooty.. so wiped over.. and see what returns

As I said.. the car gave the odd whiff for months before dismal state we now have

Black smoke = not enough air (filter or turbo)
White smoke = unburnt fuel (not enough compression)
Blue smoke = oil (turbo seals most likely) If intercooler is oily inside then the turbo is at fault.


Soot clogged inlet manifold also causes smoke but engine probably down on power as well.

DaveMcT said:

Black smoke = not enough air (filter or turbo)
White smoke = unburnt fuel (not enough compression)
Blue smoke = oil (turbo seals most likely) If intercooler is oily inside then the turbo is at fault.


Soot clogged inlet manifold also causes smoke but engine probably down on power as well.

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I generally agree with everything you're saying here Dave, except - The first turbo in our family was my 1999 Cordoba 1.9 TDI and it had a very annoying rattle which took me nearly 2 years of on and off fault diagnosing to find. When I eventually tracked it down it was a really strange problem with a fixing on the main pressure pipe between the turbo and the intercooler. This plastic pipe had to be taken off so I could "bodge" the mounting on the plastic pipe with a soldering iron. When I removed the pipe I was horrified to find it had a very fine coating of oil on it's internal surfaces. I then took the pipes off each end of the intercooler and found it was damp with oil internally too. In fact all the turbo pipes were damp inside!

Having read about failed turbos coating the pipes in oil I was absolutely distraught at the prospect of replacing the turbo and started asking around some of the garages for recommendations for reliable suppliers. Why do you want to replace it? I was asked. Because of the oil of course, said I. Was it running poorly before that? Well no, in was going very well. So there was no blue smoke and it was running well with plenty of power? Yup! Just put it all back together again, there's nothing wrong with it! But what about the oil film? Ok, young Jock, where does the oil breather go? Into the air intake said I. Well there you have it they said. Don't worry, most diesels will have a film of oil in the intake system from oil mist emitted by the breather and sucked through.

Every turboed engine I've subsequently seen with it's piping exposed has this film. If the turbo seals are blown it's not just a film, it's going to be puddles of oil, especially in the intercooler. Oh, and if you come across one like this DON'T START IT UP! It will quite likely suck the oil in and either hydraulic lock a cylinder (not all that likely unless there is a vary big puddle) but it could "run away" by burning this oil in an uncontrolled fashion.

So, if your pipes are just slightly "filmy" inside, don't worry, it's normal.

Ps. soot clogging on direct injection engines (so pretty much most diesels and direct injection petrol engines) is a common problem of the modern engine. Makes a very interesting research project as there's lots about it on the internet

The Fiat diesel has a normally open throttle valve (I'm not sure why). If that sticks shut the engine will smoke.