Reading this forum, I'm struck, time after time, by the comments considering a ten year old car to be done, finished, not worth repairing.

Maybe I come from a different culture with different values, but I've always thought a car's usable life to be more in the region of twenty years, in fact I've never owned a car less than 10 years old.

Here in France, 300,000km is considered to be about worn out, that would be 15 years at a high 20,000 km/year, average is 12,000 which works out to 25 years. 300,000 is typically when a lot of big bills fall at once; 3rd cambelt (100k/belt), 2nd suspension triangle replacement, etc. So you often see cars being sold cheaply at this point.


What are your views? How long is a car designed to last? At what point do you consider replacing it?

Steve145 said:

Reading this forum, I'm struck, time after time, by the comments considering a ten year old car to be done, finished, not worth repairing.

Maybe I come from a different culture with different values, but I've always thought a car's usable life to be more in the region of twenty years, in fact I've never owned a car less than 10 years old.

Here in France, 300,000km is considered to be about worn out, that would be 15 years at a high 20,000 km/year, average is 12,000 which works out to 25 years. 300,000 is typically when a lot of big bills fall at once; 3rd cambelt (100k/belt), 2nd suspension triangle replacement, etc. So you often see cars being sold cheaply at this point.


What are your views? How long is a car designed to last? At what point do you consider replacing it?

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I've always regarded the design life of most mainstream production cars when used in the UK to be 12 years or 150,000 miles, whichever comes first.

I'd say that once the likely annual repair bills exceed 10% of the cost of a new car, it's time to call it quits. Given that you can buy a new base Panda in the UK for a shade under £7000, that gives you about £700/yr to spend on fixing it. The economics depend greatly on who's doing the work; it's viable for a competent DIYer using aftermarket or even secondhand parts to keep a car running for much longer than someone who insists on using a franchised dealer for everything.

In the UK, once a car like a Panda is 10-12 years old, it's generally worth about £50 for each month of MOT remaining. When it costs more than about £600 to get it throught the next one, the scrapyard often beckons.

I’ll keep mine until I get bored of them or I see something amazing, I generally seal the bottom in the first few years of ownership and then wash and polish regularly. I change major components in accordance with service schedule and oils and filters annually. I maintain it so that has a big impact on the uneconomical to repair crisis that often sends cars to an early end. Here’s my nearly 10 year banger lol

The difference between here and France, the climate and road salt. Look under most 10 year old cars here and the shell will not last another 5 without welding. No point in chucking parts at something that's rotten as a pear, same climate also does for suspension mounting points, sub frames, bushes, even wiring.

What StevenRB45 said, British roads are particularly harsh on cars especially in the winter when for good 5/6 months the car is permanently went in very humid air and salted roads, they really don’t last well, it rusts not only the chassis but also the components of the suspension and steering, it also degrades rubber components much quicker.

Meanwhile in France the air is much drier, the roads are much smoother (was there two weeks ago, huge amount of resurfacing going on on the motorways I used) here in the uk they tend to just put a thin layer of tarmac over a worn road or worse, when they tar and lay loose chips down.

I had my punto till it was 12 years old by which point it was showing its age and there was quite a bit of rust appearing on the bottom and on the sub frames, as well as having new springs as they had rusted badly and it was only a matter of time before the brake pipes all needed replacing.

Yep, rust in this country is a car killer. In saying that, I have a diesel hack 2005 with over 140000 miles on the clock & I will run this workhorse into the ground.

I must admit, I do underestimate the rust issue. When I lived in the UK, I washed my car every week in winter, people thought I was mad, there was no rust on it when we scrapped it. 1994 Skoda Favorit, moved to France in 2006, scrapped in about 2010.
(we scrapped it as the cost of importing it was more than the car was worth)

Steve145 said:

I must admit, I do underestimate the rust issue. When I lived in the UK, I washed my car every week in winter, people thought I was mad, there was no rust on it when we scrapped it. 1994 Skoda Favorit, moved to France in 2006, scrapped in about 2010.
(we scrapped it as the cost of importing it was more than the car was worth)

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The Favorit was the last of the Skoda’s before VW took over, it maywell be those later cars had better rust protection to help claw back some of skodas lost reputation from the 1980s, when you scrapped it, it was only 16 years old 4 of which were spent in France and was clearly looked after by yourself so it’s not suprising it lasted well. Fiat’s built around the same time appear to far much better on rust than newer models, we had a 94 cinq that had not rust on it when sold and every one I see trundling about still seem largely rust free where as later mk2 puntos can be powered by foot Fred flintstone style.

Interestingly you scrapped it because the import costs where too high while it was otherwise a good car.

Same applies to any other car. If it’s costing £400 to get it though it’s MOT over simple things like needing new brakes and some suspension parts. Although the actual cost of the parts might not be a lot the work to change them at the garage boosts the costs. You’ve got to weigh up ‘do I spend £400 on a car that might need another £300 of work tomorrow” or do I go buy a newer car I can have more confidence in. The old car gets a couple of hundred trade in at the dealer for a newer car. The dealer makes their money on your trade in by upping the interest rate and scraps your old car.

Škoda Favorit was, indeed, the last car fully designed and manufactured before VW takeover, but, IIRC, it was only subsequent Felicia which got better rust protection and only after 1996. My memory is hazy about this, I never owned/drove one.
I do agree that design life of a car is closer to 20 than 10 years. In the end, it is a bodywork rust protection which decides about useful life - the rest is almost always repairable (bolt off/bolt on jobs). I very often see, say, 20 yrs old Pugs in almost pristine condition here, but it would be very hard to find Fiesta, Corsa or Felicia this old in similar shape.
Funny thing is that newer car may not always have better rust protection. When I decided to scrap my 1996 Mk1 Punto, it was (logically) to be replaced with Mk2 Punto. I went to see 3 or 4 of them and all of them, no matter that 5-7 yrs younger, had serious rust problems, just as bad or even worse than my scrapped Mk1. I gave up and ended up with Lancia Y instead.

It's not that they hit 10 and suddenly become worthless..

They hit just get to a certain point and it's like a tap that starts dripping...then dribbling, then flowing..that's attached to your bank account.

Example would be we had a Nissan Micra from the age of 7 to 12 years old. Between 7 and 10 it was practically faultless..regular service only. Then the exhaust fell off..no biggy..then a spring snapped..nothing major, then it started leaking oil..just a seal surely? Oh no the pan itself has rotted through and has a teabag perforation in it. Then a wheel bearing went...just a small thing..then the seals around the boot button failed and it started opening it's boot on its own and flattening it's battery..easy fix..oh there goes another spring and wheel bearing. Oh well it passed it's mot at year 12..with advisories for a rotten front cross member and brake pipes..

Ok time to press the eject button..tbf it was on the road another 2 years after we got rid, the mot history is a horror show. It's still mot d now but not taxed/insured so probably done or being run illegally.

I think maybe this is the cultural difference I mentioned earlier, and I'm not talking about a France/UK difference. I've never owned a new car, nor has any of my immediate family, nor any of my friends parents as I was growing up.

To me, the post above sounds like a normal year's motoring.

I agree with getting rid if costs become excessive, though I work on the basis of predicted future costs, if I've just replaced the suspension and the rest of the car is in good condition, then it should be ok for a bit.

I suppose it's because I wouldn't be getting a new car, but rather inheriting somebody else's problems that I prefer to stick with what I have.


Favorit incidentally, had no rust protection other than paint, would have cost 500-800€ to import at a time when I could have bought a LHD one for 500€, I still regret getting rid of it though, kept the 136 engine in case I ever got another Skoda as a project.

We got rid of the Micra October 2014..

This is it's mot sheet from February 2015


It's not throwing away perfectly good car just because it's old, it's having owned enough old cars to know when it's all down hill from here.

Yes we could have kept it, it may be just about on the road now but my wife works for the emergency services and commutes all hours she can't have a car that's moored in the garage/could leave at the side of the road in the middle of the night.

Sounds like a cautionary tale - "never buy a Nissan"
Honestly, I did not have to change a bearing on any of my cars yet no matter their mileage (those I remember are Uno, cca. 240 kkm, Punto - 230 kkm, Focus - 260 kkm).

(CZ)enda said:

Sounds like a cautionary tale - "never buy a Nissan"
Honestly, I did not have to change a bearing on any of my cars yet no matter their mileage (those I remember are Uno, cca. 240 kkm, Punto - 230 kkm, Focus - 260 kkm).

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Different place and different climate.

You'll have been on here long enough to remember the unfortunate lad on here who ended up breaking an 8 year old punto HGT due to it being fitted with the expensive option of the water soluble, self lightning, fully ventilated floor..can't find it now but I remember being horrified at the time.

StevenRB45 said:

Different place and different climate.

You'll have been on here long enough to remember the unfortunate lad on here who ended up breaking an 8 year old punto HGT due to it being fitted with the expensive option of the water soluble, self lightning, fully ventilated floor..can't find it now but I remember being horrified at the time.

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This one? https://www.fiatforum.com/punto-ii/206883-rust-rust-rust.html

To Steve 145: I do not think I will ever buy a brand new car, too. Considering how the price plummets during first five years, it looks to me like throwing money out of window.
To put things into perspective and to use my last purchase as an example - the price of the car (2003 Cosmopolitan, i.e. all bells and whistles, 95 kkm on the clock, blown head gasket, repair of which required 30€ and one sunny afternoon) was more or less equal to TWO monthly installments of a new car.

I agree. I could probably afford to buy new these days but the depreciation puts me off.
In fact most of my cars are worth more than i paid for them after several years of ownership. The 2004 Stilo is the newest car I own.

The fleet.
1945 Austin 8 paid $120 in 1980 now ~$5000 (my first car)
1978 Lotus Esprit paid $12000 in 2004 now ~$40000
1971 Landrover S2A paid $700 in 2006 now ~$5000

We also live in France and are amazed that there is very little rust on any of the cars here.
We moved from Isle of Man in 2004 where the rust was terrible, we lived there for 20 years, I did nothing but weld metal and replace panels for many cars, I made a reasonable living from the work.
We brought a fiat Giardiniera with us which is now 28 years old.
When we came here we bought a 1994 Fiat UNO diesel for €1200, did hardly anything to it till 18 months ago when it had done 386,000kms, it needs another triangle and the seats are worn out on the sides. No rust and original exhaust. UNO`s are getting rare now.
Our "now" car is a 2005 Multipla bought for €2000 has 202,000kms.
We intend to keep it for another 10 years.
The 10 year end of life seems to depend on where you live and your priority's?
The new emission laws and restrictions make choices very difficult and forced upon us.
Fuel will rise in price to make us go electric or hybrid, and we will not be able to go into large towns and citys etc.
Who knows what they will think of next?
The world wide fires, like the disastrous ones in US make emission laws meaningless.
Barry

Well out Seat Leo is coming up 15 years. It is becoming a pain in the backside, but the latest huge bill was caused by a faulty brake caliper slider ine finally wrecking the hub by stripping its thread due to a big burr in the pin thread. With a new wheel bearing and track rod required as these were destroyed on removal the cost was pushing £500. But once cleaned up it still drives almost as it did when new. As is stands on the street in Manchester a new car seems pointless. I do feel that a clutch with parts at just over £350 could just tip it over the edge, but againit just might do another year. Were the parts available more cheaply - I only fit original spares- it could quite possibly last another 5 years.

The Bravo seems sound at 80K miles and 4 years old and there are examples I have seen with over 250K miles that still look fine. I think the quality of seats ad trim will eventually do for it, but I want it to last another 6 years. We shall see.

As for the new Panda it does feel a bit flimsy and I wonder if it will last as well as the previous model.

My feeling is that parts supply seems to be the limiting factor. If yu only want a car for show they will last for ever, but if you use it every day you need bits.

Grudging credit to VW for their lower cost spares range.

I never buy "original" spare parts. It is very often only the box which makes the difference. I remember that, long long time ago, I wanted to replace a cracked headlight on my Citroen XM. The "original" part in red and white box with "Citroen" printed on it was manufactured by Valeo and it was about twice the price of the very same part packed in green box marked as "Valeo".
Which is not to say I go for the cheapest available option. After all, aftermarket parts can actually be much better quality than "original" ones (Yes, I am looking at you, Ford!).