Technical Timing after cylinder head gasket change

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Technical Timing after cylinder head gasket change

joncarter77

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Hi, I've got a Grande Punto 1.4 Active Sport 8 valve I'm going to change the cylinder head gasket on. I've got a Haynes manual and it says I need two Fiat tools to lock the crankshaft and the cam. However I think I might have to get the head skimmed in which case I think I need to remove the cam from the head? If this is the case, I can't use Haynes's method. I was thinking I could mark the cam, crank and belt with Tippex/paint and just refit with the marks lining up as the belt was recently replaced, but I noticed someone saying that wouldn't work with floating cranks. Can anyone advise if the car's got floating cranks and any other suggestions/tips to help? Thanks. :)
 
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The problem with "amateur" method is that you will never know if the engine was originally well timed ...
The second issue is that you might end-up doing the job with the engine in an incorrect position !

When using the locking tools, the engine is locked with all 4 pistons in mid-stroke position, where we are 100% sure ALL valves are closed. At that point, the camshaft locking tool should be easily inserted, if not the engine wasn't properly timed ... The correcting procedure would be as follow:

- lose the camshaft pulley
- install the camshaft locker
- install the new belt/tensioner/idler/water-pump(if replaced)
- tight the camshaft pulley nut(s)
- remove BOTH lockers
- "sit" the new belt by HAND rotating the engine for two turns
- install the CRANKshaft locker
- verify the CAMshaft can be easily installed, that confirm the good engine timing...
- redo the losing camshaft pulley procedure if needed ...

Of course you can get everything off the head for refurbishing, you only need to lock the camshaft with the tool before re-assembly, with the engine still tool-locked !!

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)
 
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Go study the Guide section well...
https://www.fiatforum.com/grande-punto-guides/237966-1-2-8v-evo-2-engine-cam-belt-replacement.html
Folks tend to overcomplicate things too much, "because there is VVT" (so what?).
You still should be able to get away with "amateur" methods, like (multiple) paint marks.
"Just in case", fabricate your own DIY timing belt tools (drawings included in the Guide).
I couldn't agree more with you about "people tend to overcomplicate things" I know I got my knickers (well, pants actually) in quite a twist trying to understand - after having done the belt on my Panda which has a "solid" top sprocket and then when tackling my Boy's Punto which has the vvt sprocket - how the vvt pulley might affect things. In fact it doesn't! I also experimented with doing it using the proper timing tools and doing it with "tippex" marks. Providing you can be sure the top sprocket is correctly timed (which it most likely will be if the engine has been running well) before you start then the Tippex method works just fine. (Look in the Panda '03 to '12 section, somewhere around page 17 or 18 at this time, for "Becky's Timing Belt" for my experiences.) Apart from the two bolts "hiding" under the part of the engine mount which bolts to the front of the engine, I would rate this an easy belt to do for any competent DIY mechanic.

If you have the head shaved to clean up the mating faces then, technically speaking, because metal is being removed from the face of the head the camshaft will be moved that much closer to the crankshaft once reassembled. This will slightly alter the angular relationship between the cam and crankshaft - because the tooth pitch on the belt will be the same - So to get things perfect you probably ought to use the timing tools to reposition the cam pulley.

You suggest making your own timing tools. I think the cam locking tool would be particularly difficult to make in that getting the offset angle on the "tongue" which locks into the slot on the cam would be hard to do. The tool which bolts to the crankshaft pulley would only be a little more manageable. I bought my Neilsen branded kit for around £40 and think it was well worth the money. I more than recovered the price doing the Panda (compared with paying a garage to do it) so when it came to doing the Punto it was all for free.

My last comment would be that if you are having the head faced and consequently having to reposition the cam sprocket by using the tools and slackening and retightening it's securing bolt, I think there's a fair chance you will need, on completion, to do a "Phonic Wheel Relearn" (I mention about this in "Becky's Timing Belt") If you don't do this and get the Check Engine Light illuminating with codes for misfiring stored when you drive it (usually, I think, after the engine has experienced running at speed - so mid to higher revs). This seems to be how it manifests. People on our forum report wasting lots of money renewing coil packs, spark plugs, HT leads, etc only to find, eventually, that they needed a Phonic Wheel Relearn! I have Multiecuscan which can do it if I need to and the official Fiat garage computer will, of course, do it - for a small fortune in "sheckles" no doubt - but I don't think any other "generic" diagnostic tools have the capability? It's well worth being aware of this Phonic wheel thing, many small garages seem to be ignorant of it's symptoms and simple cure (if you can access someone with MES)
 
The problem with "amateur" method is that you will never know if the engine was originally well timed ...
The second issue is that you might end-up doing the job with the engine in an incorrect position !

When using the locking tools, the engine is locked with all 4 pistons in mid-stroke position, where we are 100% sure ALL valves are closed. At that point, the camshaft locking tool should be easily inserted, if not the engine wasn't properly timed ... The correcting procedure would be as follow:

- lose the camshaft pulley
- install the camshaft locker
- install the new belt/tensioner/idler/water-pump(if replaced)
- tight the camshaft pulley nut(s)
- remove BOTH lockers
- "sit" the new belt by HAND rotating the engine for two turns
- install the CRANKshaft locker
- verify the CAMshaft can be easily installed, that confirm the good engine timing...
- redo the losing camshaft pulley procedure if needed ...

Of course you can get everything off the head for refurbishing, you only need to lock the camshaft with the tool before re-assembly, with the engine still tool-locked !!

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)
Great post Bernie. My typing is so slow you got in before me! however I'm please to see I don't think we are in disagreement about how best to do this.
 
There is a problem with "official procedure" = it's almost plain stupid (although it works, no doubt here). And folks copy this (blindly follow The Procedure, like a cyborgs) without thinking ("monkey see, monkey do").
WHY on earth would you drop the timing belt as a first (or second) step? Doesn't make sense, AT ALL.

Correct (logical) way is (should be), if you use timing belt tools:
- you try to install them first (to check if engine was timed/clocked properly) and decide "what's next",
- then you can fool-around with "official" steps (but you can skip some of them - OK, depending what kind of job it is, timing belt swap, head gasket, etc.).

Remember this: "official procedure" is copied straight from the engine factory, where they assemble them the very first time. You don't have to mimic it exactly step by step (or, not always).

As for making DIY tools, it's a definition of a hobby, right? You make your own things, and by definition it's not meant to be "economical" (and you don't count your own "man/working hours" doing it).

PS
The problem with "amateur" method is that you will never know if the engine was originally well timed ...
The same is true for "the one and only correct and right official proper procedure"!
And there is a room for errors too (when engine stops at random position, you drop the belt and then try to fit timing tools, you can potentially do some damage). It is not "bullet proof" too.
Proper way is to take the best from both worlds (official and old-school/DIY).
 
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There is a problem with "official procedure" = it's almost plain stupid (although it works, no doubt here). And folks copy this (blindly follow The Procedure, like a cyborgs) without thinking ("monkey see, monkey do").
WHY on earth would you drop the timing belt as a first (or second) step? Doesn't make sense, AT ALL.

Correct (logical) way is (should be), if you use timing belt tools:
- you try to install them first (to check if engine was timed/clocked properly) and decide "what's next",
- then you can fool-around with "official" steps (but you can skip some of them - OK, depending what kind of job it is, timing belt swap, head gasket, etc.).

Remember this: "official procedure" is copied straight from the engine factory, where they assemble them the very first time. You don't have to mimic it exactly step by step (or, not always).

As for making DIY tools, it's a definition of a hobby, right? You make your own things, and by definition it's not meant to be "economical" (and you don't count your own "man/working hours" doing it).

PS

The same is true for "the one and only correct and right official proper procedure"!
And there is a room for errors too (when engine stops at random position, you drop the belt and then try to fit timing tools, you can potentially do some damage). It is not "bullet proof" too.
Proper way is to take the best from both worlds (official and old-school/DIY).
Well, I've ticked as "liked" because I did enjoy reading your post. Not too sure I understood what you're saying in some of it? but I enjoyed it very much!
 
PS

The same is true for "the one and only correct and right official proper procedure"!

Sorry but I must disagree...

Using old school method, you'd mark the pulley and the engine/head so the shafts would be at the same position with the new belt installed. Problem is you can't tell if they were at their intended position (suppose the previous owner did a bad belt job before).
Using the tools lock method, you HAVE to bring the shafts at the correct position BEFORE droping the belt: 100% sure method.

BTW, who said one have to drop the belt at 1st step ?

The ONLY way is to bring the engine at SAFE position, i.e. shafts locked FIRST !
Belt replacement could then be safely done ...

If the belt broke while the engine was running it is probably too late for the sacrificial rockers or even worse for the valves/pistons if your engine wasn't designed with those breakable components (rockers). In this case you'd HAVE to bring the shafts at their "service" position, how would the "typex marks" help in this case ??

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)
 
BTW, who said one have to drop the belt at 1st step ?
Example: eLearn. And it's "copy&pasted" in other similar manuals/programs ("Vivid Workshop"), forum guides, etc., all around the world in multiple languages. This wrong procedure is fairly popular and pushed as "official". Soon or later a hobbyist who wants to do the timing belt job, will find it (or some version of it - even on This forum).

Fiat manual (in Italian) from year 2004 (PDF file, about 125 MB one - you can find it in the internet) is slightly better (they play around belt tensioner, VVT and camshaft first, crankshaft tool is a last thing they teach you to use).

"Autodata" is way better (you put crank and cam tools first, and then release the tension - "old", correct way, you ignore VVT as long as possible, you touch it only when it's time - pun intended - to do so), but they say to slacken VVT with the camshaft tool still installed (wrong - you can damage it or even crack the head casting).

So folks be careful, don't trust any (single) source (compare multiple ones - books, manuals, programs, forums, do some research, study the history of your engine family, in this case 8-valve FIRE - adding a VVT is not a "big drama" really as people paint it). Traditional approach is still valid: you mess with crankshaft first, then camshaft, and the rest (whatever the engine is, VVT or not, "special" tools or not).
 
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Example: eLearn. And it's "copy&pasted" in other similar manuals/programs ("Vivid Workshop"), forum guides, etc., all around the world in multiple languages.
Fiat manual (in Italian) from year 2004 (PDF file, about 130MB one - you can find it in the internet) is slightly better (they play around belt tensioner, VVT and camshaft first, crankshaft tool is a last thing they teach you to use).
"Autodata" is way better (you put crank and cam tools first - "old", correct way, you ignore VVT as long as possible).

TRUE, just went to have a look @ eLearn and it actually says to lose the tensioner and remove the belt as first step ! How stupid !!

I doubt ANY mechanic would do so without having FIRST set the engine in safe position...
Though timing belt replacement is not really a big deal it's neither the average Joe's easiest DIY job to perform, proof are the requests from forum members about that stuff...
Still, once well documented and using the correct tooling, it is a relatively easy task to achieve.

BRs, Bernie
 
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