Technical Not another electric window problem!

iansl · Mar 11, 2021

Hi people,

I have looked at other threads and Googled far and wide but cannot find my problem so here goes. Any comments appreciated.

Its a 2014 Ducato.

Both my electric windows work - Yay!

BUT

When I try to wind the passenger window down from the drivers side nothing happens.

My thoughts were that its the switch on the drivers side so I was about to order another but then I noticed that I could hear a relay click from somewhere behind the dash when I press the switch so that makes me think the switch is working - well, it is obviously sending a signal to a relay at least and that relay is clicking so why is the functional electric window not moving?

Im baffled. Any thoughts at what I can try to fix it?

Thanks.

rayc · Mar 11, 2021

Any help? When the drivers door switch is set to open passenger window Pin 7 of the drivers switch feeds positive volts to the passenger door motor

camionpilot · Mar 11, 2021

Check cabling as it enters the door , constant opening can cause the wire [ s ] to break

Communicator · Mar 11, 2021

I think that there may be more to the window control circuit, than what is shown on the eLearn diagram, kindly provided by rayc.

I speculate that there are at least two relays contained in each window motor assembly. These relays would serve to apply power to the motor so that it operates in either the raise or lower directions. This speculation is partly confirmed by the fact that the fuse connecting to the two switch units is 7.5A?, while those for the motor units seem to be 15A? (Definition on pdf diagram is poor.)

It may be that the relay heard by the OP is not operating fully when operated from the drivers door switch. The signal has to pass through both Door Couplings (connectors) D228 and D229, while the signal from the passenger door connects more directly to the door motor.

There is also the possibility of damage to the door cables as suggested by Camionpilot.

The possibility of a faulty drivers door switch, could be checked by applying a brief temporary short between pins 5 & 7 of the switch connector.

If not the switch, then while locating the door cables is possible, finding the associated connector may require more patience. At least that was the case when locating a central locking problem on my x244.

Ian,

To assist others, please post the eventual diagnosis on this thread.

iansl · Mar 12, 2021

Thanks all for the feedback. I will start with shorting the pins as suggested and see what happens.

The van has done less than 50k miles so I would hope there is no wiring damage yet but as I have only just bought the van I dont know what it has been through so thanks for that tip too.

I will be sure to feedback the solution when I get to the bottom of it. Thanks so far for your help.

iansl · Mar 12, 2021

Wow, just took a look at that PDF. These resources are amazing!

Being new to the forum (having just bought the van) I had no idea such stuff was available.

Thanks RayC

rayc · Mar 12, 2021

iansl said:
Wow, just took a look at that PDF. These resources are amazing!

Being new to the forum (having just bought the van) I had no idea such stuff was available.

Thanks RayC

It is from a cheap ebay dvd. It allows you to save a 'packet' e.g. "Front Electric Windows" to pdf albeit at reduced quality from the original .
One such as this which despite its title will cover the euro 4 models

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fiat-Duc...447109?hash=item3b0970a2c5:g:v1IAAOSwJTta0fAA

iansl · Mar 12, 2021

Wow, thats got to be worth the price of a pint!

I will pick up a copy. I believe my 2014 is Euro 5 - does it cover that?

Thanks.

rayc · Mar 12, 2021

iansl said:
Wow, thats got to be worth the price of a pint!

I will pick up a copy. I believe my 2014 is Euro 5 - does it cover that?

Thanks.

Fiat stopped releasing information around about that time. Certain things changed at Euro 5 and of course even more for the X290 Euro 6. The Euro 5 is a bit of a hybrid with lots of bits retained from euro 4. The DVD will be useful, it has helped me diagnose problems on my Euro 6.

iansl · Mar 19, 2021

Hi, there has been a new development. The Ducato is a campervan and I am at work all week so I have only been able to tinker with it a little so I have not yet had time to short the pins yet but I noticed last night that what I said in the original post is not entirely accurate...

Yesterday I wound down the passenger window with the passenger switch and then thought I would see if the driver switch would wind it up and it does. But, when you try to wind it back down with the drivers switch it also goes up! So, the window operates perfectly from the passenger side and from the drivers side the passenger window goes up no matter which direction you choose!

I never noticed this before because I have always tried to wind the window down from a closed position and could hear the relay clicking because it is trying to wind it up further.

This weekend I will attempt to prise the switch out and try the pin-short and see if I can get it to go the other way.

Thanks, Ian

iansl · Mar 19, 2021

Communicator said:
I think that there may be more to the window control circuit, than what is shown on the eLearn diagram, kindly provided by rayc.

I speculate that there are at least two relays contained in each window motor assembly. These relays would serve to apply power to the motor so that it operates in either the raise or lower directions. This speculation is partly confirmed by the fact that the fuse connecting to the two switch units is 7.5A?, while those for the motor units seem to be 15A? (Definition on pdf diagram is poor.)

It may be that the relay heard by the OP is not operating fully when operated from the drivers door switch. The signal has to pass through both Door Couplings (connectors) D228 and D229, while the signal from the passenger door connects more directly to the door motor.

There is also the possibility of damage to the door cables as suggested by Camionpilot.

The possibility of a faulty drivers door switch, could be checked by applying a brief temporary short between pins 5 & 7 of the switch connector.

If not the switch, then while locating the door cables is possible, finding the associated connector may require more patience. At least that was the case when locating a central locking problem on my x244.

Ian,

To assist others, please post the eventual diagnosis on this thread.

Hi Communicator, I just tried shorting pins 5 and 7 but nothing happened - no relay click, nothing.

Any thoughts on what may be the problem bearing in mind my post above about discovering it winds down with the switch in both positions?

Many thanks all for your ideas.

Ian

rayc · Mar 19, 2021

iansl said:
Hi Communicator, I just tried shorting pins 5 and 7 but nothing happened - no relay click, nothing.

Any thoughts on what may be the problem bearing in mind my post above about discovering it winds down with the switch in both positions?

Many thanks all for your ideas.

Ian

Sorry to butt in but I think there is positive volts on pin 6. This connects via the switch to pin 8 to raise passenger window and pin 7 to lower the passenger window.
That is how I read the drawing and FUNCTIONAL DESCRIPTION page 3 of the pdf.

Anthony489 · Mar 19, 2021

Hi

Here is a photo version of the elearn scematic, which may be better resolution than the pdf.

The wire colours are:

MV Brown/Green
SN Pink/Black
N Black
HM Grey/Green
HN Grey/Black
BL White/Blue
HV Grey/Green
HR Grey/Red
NZ Black/Violet
S Pink

The components are

N060 Drivers side window
N061 Passenger side window
D228, D229 Wiring Plug/Socket Couplings
H051 Drivers side switch

H050 Passenger side switch

B002 Dashboard Junction Unit

I suspect the fault is in one of the link wires from drivers switch to passenger switch, or the switch itself.

Communicator · Mar 19, 2021

Rayc,

Your contributions are appreciated. As stated in my earlier post, I was struggling with poor definition on the pdf. Never thought to cross check with the circuit description, for pin numbers!

Anthony489,

I fully agree with your diagnosis, but may I include connectors D228, and D229 in the definition of "link wires". There are also the "T" connections in the wiring harness.

iansl · Mar 20, 2021

I just dont get it. I measured pin 6 and yes, it has +12v on it. I then tried connecting it to pins 7 and 8 in turn but nothing happened - no relay, no movement. I really don't understand. With the switch connected at least the window will go up but I couldn't even make it do that.

I also tried measuring for a positive voltage on pins 7 and 8 on the drivers switch plug as I operated the passenger window up and down from the passenger switch and expected to see a reading but got nothing.

I really appreciate your help with this anyway. I'm not sure whether to just order a new switch and hope it will work. I would have liked to have proved the theory first though.

A new switch is only £4.69 from China but will take a month to arrive...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Car-Electric-Window-Switch-Button-for-Citroen-Relay-Fiat-Doblo-Ducato-735421419/174210109156

Communicator · Mar 20, 2021

All of the old questions, are you making a good contact etc. Are you counting the pins correctly? Do the wire colours match?

Perhaps try another approach, and test the switch for continuity when operated. Best done with switch unplugged, and meter on continuity or buzzer.

I agree, it would be nice to be sure, before ordering a switch.

iansl · Mar 20, 2021

Hi Communicator, all the points you are making are fair. I am certain I am counting the pins correctly - I was extremely careful as I didnt want to make things worse than they already are! As to whether I am making a connection - I dont know. Its a stiff wire that I am pushing in and it makes a good connection to the positive on 6. I could only see a couple of wires through the cloth wrapping on the loom but they seemed to tie-up. I will take another look tomorrow and maybe try a different wire. I would at least expect to be able to make the window go up.

Good idea with the switch test. I will try that too.

rayc · Mar 21, 2021

I know this may be not be the case but I wondered, as you do, whether the electrical drawing of the switch told the whole truth. Is it possible that it is a changeover switch e.g. there will be positive and negative on pins 7 & 8 which swop over depending upon whether the switch is in the up or down position.
This previous topic on the Punto forum certainly shows it that way in the drawing posted by a1ant but it is a different motor arrangement than the 4 wire motor show in the X250 drawing. https://www.fiatforum.com/punto-ii/333784-electric-window-wiring-diagram.html

Could the operation be confirmed by checking against the circuits that work or even the passenger door switch itself?

Please ignore if this is all a load of tosh

iansl · Mar 21, 2021

Hi all, a little more info from todays faffing around with a piece of wire and a multimeter!

Well, having looked at the connector that goes into the switch again, I am beginning to question the wiring diagram as my 2014 Ducato doesnt have a wire going into pin 7 at all. The plug has numbers on 1 and 4 on the top row and 5 and 8 on the bottom but 7 definitely has no wire going into it.

Its hard to see what colours go where but the colours I see are as follows...

Pin 4 Grey/White
Pin 8 Grey/Green (HV)
White/Blue (BL)
Grey/Red (HR)
Grey/White - another of the same colour
Black (N)

Unfortunately I cannot easily see for sure which pins the other wires go to.

I can confirm my Pin 6 is +12V and that if I short this to pin 5, 7(empty) or 8 nothing happens. I have not dared short it to any other pin.

Communicator · Mar 21, 2021

I can only say do be prepared to question eLearn. I have found several errors on eLearn applicable to my X244. These include relay contacts and coil interchanged, inconsistent connector labelling, and on one 4 pole connector, the pin allocation on eLearn did not match that moulded onto the plug, also missing wire, engine rpm and timing sensors. Thats just on wiring diagrams. Also pinout for ECU was obviously incorrect.

To draw a parallel, on the x244 the window switches are routed to a control unit "black/blank box". This handles the polarity reversal, and the cut off at end of travel. The same control unit is also involved with the central locking. Motors are shown as two wire only.

On the x250 the control function is not carried out by the BCM, and as I suggested earlier in this thread, it must be embodied in the window motor units. The control signal is a switched positive. Would it aid diagnosis if a multimeter selected to volts was connected between the confirmed positive, and the suspect control wires? A zero reading would be confirmation of an open circuit, also there is the possibility of comparing with working drivers side.

Technical Not another electric window problem!

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