Hello.

This is my first Fiat Ducato.

My van has been offroad for 2 months whilst I have been waiting for the correct parts to be delivered to me.
I only had to change a CV Joint/boot and lower ball joint.


I have had many problems with businesses sending the wrong part even after I supply them with my vin?
Fiat don't have a good reputation here...but it is proabably the issue with getting the right part.


Anyway, last step was putting auto fluid back into auto transmission.
Go to start the car.
Automatic Gear selector appears to be working.
Put foot on brake, and selected park from neutral before turning key all the way.

Engine turns over, engine briefly fires then immediately snuffs out?

I need the engine running as I believe I still have to calibrate the Auto first?


All dash lights appear normal...but I will have to recheck.

I am putting the battery on charge overnight. ( fingers crossed )
It was reading 12.45V before charging.


Perhaps someone may know the things to check?
I can say when I parked it up, it would start first time and engine was purring before it was parked for the cv joint work.

We have had a lot of rain in the past 2 weeks.
I noticed a leak coming from the passenger side below the windscreen.
There seems to be a funnel designed there in the van which directs water into the engine bay from just below the windscreen by design. I noticed it leaks from the pipe that passes into the inside the engine bay and collects at the left hand mount near the auto gearbox. Will need to sort that which means removing trim below windscreen and just above the bonnet.

When it rains, it really pours here.


Is this a common fault with Ducatos?

Anyway, will let you know if the battery charging does the trick?
Anyone with similar experience, suggestions welcome?

Thanks.

Hello,

One thing to eliminate.

Due to the vehicle being laid up for a while, is there any possibility that mice or similar pests have got into the air filter?

If air filter is only paper with no metal barrier, they can chew through the filter. Then if you have EGR fitted you will also have a mass air flow sensor. Debris from a chewed filter can create havoc with the sensor.

It still does not start after a full battery charge!

I put the key in and turn.
I hear the faint hum of the fuel pump for 5 s?
The dash boots up and displays the pictures and the P "Park" symbol.
I turn the key all the way and it turns over. Starter motor works.
It roars...then cuts out.



It seems electronic?


Good advice. I will check the air and pipes.

Some pipes do feel loose to the turbo?
I did think it was strangely loose....will check!


I wisely stored my airbox in the back of the van.
However, I forgot to block off the other pipe to the intake!


I may have to clean out the cobwebs...literally!
I noticed spiders spinning cobwebs at the left front wheel.
Crazy! ... never thought it would be sitting so long.
Have to be careful ..as they maybe redbacks!
There is a brown snake around here somewhere also.


...shoulda really sealed that pipe! I will put a broom handle in it first or pull it!

It does sound like the air is fine. It roars to life ..then snuffs.


My model is the 2006 2.8l JTD common rail without EGR.
It looks like it has a MAF though.
...well that is what the carcode says.


Anyway, finally got the ATF fluid back into the auto gearbox.
No dipstick makes it close to impossible to maintain easily.
...I was so keen to calibrate and test drive it with new fluid.


I have noticed the wiring for the Autobox sits almost directly under that waterleak from the funnel built below the windscreen.

We had a lot of rain this month! I mean big downpours.
....directing that amount of water into the enginebay...what were they thinking????

I guess I should have plugged that leak when I noticed it but thought...diesels can handle external water....
I admit this to be the wrong thinking with the heavy sensor load in this engine bay.

Death by sensors!


I have an older tech diesel Mitzi Shogun turbo diesel.
It's pretty unstoppable once its started. It's very simple also in the engine compartment.


Battery is fully charged. Green spot in charge windows.

My battery did go flat once.

I did have to disconnect the battery to recharge.

Does a flat battery cause any issues with the immobilizer?
It fires once then snuffs.
It's like the fuel is being cutoff? ...but quickly


Ok..seeing an exclamation mark, battery symbol, oil can symbol on the dash.
Might have to read the manual?

Another thought, initiated by your mention of snakes. Is the exhaust clear?

(We once had a car that had been used for short trips prior to our ownership. It garadually died until its top speed was only about 5 mph.)

My 2006 2.8 JTD (manual) has neither EGR or MAF. The MAF should be visible as a short section of pipe, with electrical connector, at the air filter exit.

Is your vehicle an x244, or x250? The latter have a reputation for poor rainwater drainage.

eLearn is available in this forums downloads sections. Go to descriptions, the engine, start reading. Diagram in there shows all of the possible sensors connecting to the ECU.


If the battery starts the engine, I do not think that the battery is the immediate problem, but its life could have been shortened, if it was left flat.

The oil can symbol sounds ominous. I assume that the engine oil level is OK, so perhaps a bad connecton there.

Without checking, my thinking is that obiously no real oil pressure before starting. Possible that the ECU could be programmed to shut the engine down, if no oil pressure after starting.

I will check for water draining on my x244. I cannot follow your description. I am frequently under the bonnet (hood), and having looked after reports relating to the x250, everything seemed OK.

If you had an immobiliser fault, the engine would not start.


On a side note, parts of the UK have had more than enough rain recently. Lots of people and businesses flooded out.

Firstly...thanks for the suggestions....
It has helped focus the method to the fix...

More rain. Will have to postpone troubleshooting.

The symbols...
exclamation mark....Handbrake On.
Oilcan .... yet to see significance and whether normal or not?


I think the immobiliser is not the issue. There is no symbol for that coming up at least?
Key fob locking /unlocking door remotely.

Car battery fully charged and holding.


So going down the fuel/air investigation.

I need to remove airbox and check to do this which was already suggested.
I will follow that path anyway.

Just seen this Fuel Cut-Off switch! hmmm ...does sound like it could cause the issue...
Will try this first as it is an easy test.

Unsure how that is suppose to work...yet?
I wonder if there were any issues with this when the battery when flat?
Or when I was hammering away to get the lower ball joint off to replace the right cv joint?
I didn't have the special tool so ended up using a fork and hammer.

It would have to be quite sensitive? ...I wonder ....surely not?????

I am not familiar with those switches. :idea:

Communicator

Thanks so much for your suggestions.
I am posting because it may help others also.


I will try the fuel cut off switch first...as I did have to swing the hammer very very hard...
several times ...to break that ball joint. Never owned a car with one of these before!
...didn't even know it was there.

I mean it was on really tight!
I would have done Conan the Barbarian proud! lol


You try and shock the joint with the hammer...and I wasn't using a dolly at first.

I understand you dont't understand about the funnel shaped below the windscreen which

goes into the engine bay right above the electronic connector for the auto.

If it sounds stupid...it is because it is stupid.

It is a dumb design because mine leaks. At least I have spotted the leak.
Water off the windscreen funnels to it through a grill at the bottom of the windscreen!
I know why people have complaints with the auto failing.

Hoping I am not too late to seal it and fix it? (Thunderstorm and heavy rain now!)


I would need to remove the passenger side grill to seal the bottom to the pipe.
Water is going around the seal of the pipe and dumping directly into my engine bay ...with the bonnet closed! ....at least i know!

Just need the rain to stop ....so it dries ...then I can seal it.

Communicator

Mine is the x244

It is good to know someone else with a 2006 model.
It has very good specs and load space.

Well I tried the Fuel cut-off switch when the rain stopped.

It did not fix my problem.
The switch didn't feel very clean though.
I didn't get a clear on off when I pushed it?

Anyway, I will run those other airway checks and pipe connections.
Mine has a MAF but not EGR.

If that doesn't find anything, I will move onto draining fuel from the filter?

Communicator said:

Another thought, initiated by your mention of snakes. Is the exhaust clear?

(We once had a car that had been used for short trips prior to our ownership. It garadually died until its top speed was only about 5 mph.)

My 2006 2.8 JTD (manual) has neither EGR or MAF. The MAF should be visible as a short section of pipe, with electrical connector, at the air filter exit.

Is your vehicle an x244, or x250? The latter have a reputation for poor rainwater drainage.

eLearn is available in this forums downloads sections. Go to descriptions, the engine, start reading. Diagram in there shows all of the possible sensors connecting to the ECU.


If the battery starts the engine, I do not think that the battery is the immediate problem, but its life could have been shortened, if it was left flat.

The oil can symbol sounds ominous. I assume that the engine oil level is OK, so perhaps a bad connecton there.

Without checking, my thinking is that obiously no real oil pressure before starting. Possible that the ECU could be programmed to shut the engine down, if no oil pressure after starting.

I will check for water draining on my x244. I cannot follow your description. I am frequently under the bonnet (hood), and having looked after reports relating to the x250, everything seemed OK.

If you had an immobiliser fault, the engine would not start.


On a side note, parts of the UK have had more than enough rain recently. Lots of people and businesses flooded out.

Click to expand...

Communicator

I understand not understanding my description.
Here is some pictures of the windscreen funnel.
It was leaking inside of the engine bay!! Mainly onto the Auto electronic plug and mount.

I have sealed the funnel now. Orange sealant.

Communicator said:

Hello,

One thing to eliminate.

Due to the vehicle being laid up for a while, is there any possibility that mice or similar pests have got into the air filter?

If air filter is only paper with no metal barrier, they can chew through the filter. Then if you have EGR fitted you will also have a mass air flow sensor. Debris from a chewed filter can create havoc with the sensor.

Click to expand...

here is another pic of the sealed windscreen funnel.

Hi,

I assume that the rain has stopped in your part of the world. UK has another storm warning for this weekend.

Thanks for the photos. I took a photo through the grille last night. The arrangement looks to be the same as mine which has a manual box. I think that what I was not understanding was that it was the connection to the drain pipe which was leaking. On my vehicle the moulded rubber drain hose passes over the gearbox, before discharging behind it (from memory).

The use of a non circular hose connection seems to be the weak point, with the longer sides (back and front), tending to distort inwards causing the leak. Mine looks OK so far. I suspect that a warmer climate could be a factor. Is your drain pipe clear, or could there be a collection of rotten leaves in it? Have you tried some water down the hole?


I may also have been confused by the description of the warning lights. On switcng on the ignition, the ECU carries out a check function, but after about two seconds you should only be left with the battery and oil warning lights (check in drivers manual). These last two lights should extinguish when the engine starts. If the exclamation symbol is lit, it could be that you have a fault code stored. Fault codes seem to be both helpful and misleading.

I see from other threads that you are tackling the fuel filter, as far as I can see mine is identical. I have changed fuel filters on other vehicles, but due to low mileage not on the Ducato. Scheduled for next couple of months, with filter element purchased recently. I will be watching with interest.

The only other item that comes to mind which fits the frame is the MAF. I have read of these being cleaned with aerosol solvent sprays, very delicate do not touch. (The ECU will not expect a substantial airflow at cranking speed, but at tickover?)

Communicator

Once again, thanks for your advice.

I did pull out the airbox, checked filter. It looked good.
MAF sensor was on the short pipe. Not sure if it is working or not?

Checked the other end of pipe to turbo/air intake with a rod?
It wasn't really easy due to the curves.

It still doesn't start.
Same issue.
I read the manual. The exclamation mark is the handbrake on symbol.
Front wheels are still jacked up in the air.
Probably should jack down now!


I think the air is ok?
Looking at fuel/fuel filter now.

I ordered the special tool for the fuel filter change but it will take 3 wks!
Ours is the plastic UFI housing.
I will need to change the filter.
It might as well be now I guess as I only just bought the van.
Will try to just drain fuel filter first?


Yes the rain finally stopped here.
Now that you see that windscreen funnel. It is approx 30 cm deep and was bypassing that outpipe and basically dousing the engine bay over the auto gearbox electrical connector.

Water in fuel from condensation is my next suspect...although there is no warning on the dash?


I will have to test if my sealing did a good job for the windscreen funnel.
It is in a very awkward spot and was hard to get the surface clean also.

Will look at the eLearn section you suggest.

I also have one of these OBDII gadgets. Wonder if it will work?


Thanks for the suggestions so far.

The best fault diagnosis tool is Multiecuscan,, stand alone devices-especially the cheaper ones- just aren't reliable enough as they are not 'fluent fiat' speaking. They need to be! The free trial version will cover all but the ABS and ASR modules, IIRC, which should be fine for your use at this time.All you need is a half decent laptop, and the correct leads. There is plenty of info on here and the Multiecuscan web site.

Ocwobio said:

The best fault diagnosis tool is Multiecuscan,, stand alone devices-especially the cheaper ones- just aren't reliable enough as they are not 'fluent fiat' speaking. They need to be! The free trial version will cover all but the ABS and ASR modules, IIRC, which should be fine for your use at this time.All you need is a half decent laptop, and the correct leads. There is plenty of info on here and the Multiecuscan web site.

Click to expand...

Thank you.
Got a laptop and setup multiecuscan. Connected to a OBDII bluetooth dongle.

It confirmed Bosch ECU and ZF4HP20 Auto gearbox.
But trial version didn't tell me anymore.
No other readings? 20 minutes time limit also on trial.
I wasn't getting any other readings from sensors etc but engine wasn't running.

Starting issue with the engine. Key on, humm of fuel pump approx 10s, It turns over, fires once then engine dies?
BaTTERY did go flat. I did disconnect -ve lead to charge it up. BATTERY full now.

Just an update...

I opened the bleed screw for the fuel filter and placed clear jar underrneath.

Put key in ignition and heard fuel pump humming.
Jar filled up rapidly with fuel to the brim.

Diesel in jar looked good with no signs of water.

I then checked Fuel pump fuse and relay.( unlikely but checking anyway)
Yanked fuel relay.
result: engine turns over but doesn't fire at all.
Fuel Relay appears good...I guess.


Anyone know what all that stuff is over the +ve terminal of the battery?
Lots of funny metal stuff? Looks unusual...
It's difficult to even see the +ve terminal post.
I only disconnected the -ve terminal to charge battery in vehicle.

Anyone know how to take off the intake pipe to the turbo?
I rolled under van but just couldn't see an eASY way to do this?
I wanted to check it hasn't filled up with water...

Still have starting issues!

Hi, there are a lot of instances where bluetooth dongles have not given reliable results. I have had this myself, so got rid of my dongle. It was last tried on a Smart car and a Renault. I could not keep a reliable connection. So, I have the hardwires now. I forgot there is a 20 mins restriction on unregistered Multiecuscan, I'm sure there wasn't when I bought mine, it would not connect to ABS and ASR modules. However, itis the best tool, and I think that it will need to record live data, and IIRC the trial may not do so, or may only check 2 streams at once, with time limits and will not save data. I regret I am not aware of what to look at in live data, but will be most likely along the lines of fuel delivery amounts, and looking for sudden changes in them?

IceVovo said:

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Anyone know what all that stuff is over the +ve terminal of the battery?
Lots of funny metal stuff? Looks unusual...
It's difficult to even see the +ve terminal post.
I only disconnected the -ve terminal to charge battery in vehicle.

Anyone know how to take off the intake pipe to the turbo?
I rolled under van but just couldn't see an eASY way to do this?
I wanted to check it hasn't filled up with water...

Still have starting issues!

Click to expand...

All that stuff over the +ve terminal of the battery, is the battery fusebox. It contains the alternator fuse (150A mega), and three midi fuses, which supply the engine bay fusebox, and the RHS cab fusebox, also a spare "converter's " fuse. The LHS cab fusebox is supplied via the engine bay fusebox.

Sorry I have not had cause to disconnect the turbo air inlet or outlet connections. I think That I may have seen mention of a special tool recently, when searching for something else.

Ocwobio said:

Hi, there are a lot of instances where bluetooth dongles have not given reliable results. I have had this myself, so got rid of my dongle. It was last tried on a Smart car and a Renault. I could not keep a reliable connection. So, I have the hardwires now. I forgot there is a 20 mins restriction on unregistered Multiecuscan, I'm sure there wasn't when I bought mine, it would not connect to ABS and ASR modules. However, itis the best tool, and I think that it will need to record live data, and IIRC the trial may not do so, or may only check 2 streams at once, with time limits and will not save data. I regret I am not aware of what to look at in live data, but will be most likely along the lines of fuel delivery amounts, and looking for sudden changes in them?

Click to expand...

I just paid for the registered version of Multiecuscan.
I expected better to be honest...but wondering if this is the bluettooth dongle.
I am no expert here....

I am unsure if it is working fully?

The bluettooth connects at 9600 baud...so i think a cable version may be way better.
Sheesh ...been a llooong time since i used 9600 baud.

I suspect the AIR reading are wrong?

suspect not all reading are correct?
Don't see where I can save each scan to file?

I am getting Water in the Fuel : Present
Also, Water in Fuel control light: On (but it is off on the dash!!!!!!)
But I drained fuel from filter...no sign of water.
....I am sceptical....

Glow plug heater module: not OK
Glow plug relay test: not active
It was so hot here today...wouldn't need those glow plugs.

Engine starts briefly then snuffs...so readings do not appear for long.

Note. No DTC codes thrown for Engine ECU.
No warning lights on dash.

Next ..I scanned Auto gearbox.
There is a DTC code in there...
P1711 Key Lock Solenoid ???? what doe that mean?
My fear is water leak onto autogearbox electric plug has shorted out the valve body/solenoid pack?
But would that stop the engine from starting?

Battery also could be an issue.
But after charging up...it is turning engine over with good rpm and it fires initially before dying.

Believe the battery is OK?

Unsure what my best option is?

I too suspect the bluettooth dongle may not be upto task?
Some basics work.
But it does connect and can pull saved error codes.

Any suggestions welcome...

Ocwobio said:

The best fault diagnosis tool is Multiecuscan,, stand alone devices-especially the cheaper ones- just aren't reliable enough as they are not 'fluent fiat' speaking. They need to be! The free trial version will cover all but the ABS and ASR modules, IIRC, which should be fine for your use at this time.All you need is a half decent laptop, and the correct leads. There is plenty of info on here and the Multiecuscan web site.

Click to expand...

again..thanks Ocwobio for suggestions.

I have ordered a OBDII cable and bought multiecuscan(MES).
The Bluetooth dongle did capture some codes but some data appeared suspect.

I will post some MES bluetooth readings but they are subject to verification with OBD cable.

Here is some readings....but I have ordered the OBDII cable.
Some readings are suspect from the bluetooth dongle.

Water in fuel ... but doesn't appear to have water in fuel at filter?
I may need to verify sensor. No warning light on dash though????
It's inconsistent....


Trying to determine if this a real warning and the dash is not displaying the warning?
I have ordered tool to change fuel filter properly.

also getting an Auto transmission DTC.

Key Lock Solenoid ...auto error


I drove the van and parked it in this spot.
Auto was working and engine was purring?


Never owned an automatic before....
Would this error cause the engine to not start?
There is no autotransmission warning light on the dash.

Once again...I am waiting on OBDII cable to check these readings.

Has anyone encountered this before?
It's specific to auto gearbox.