In the end ...

I could still realise that I am asking for help for a pile of ... (ouch)!

A 1997 Fiat Bravo 100 TD 1.9 (in multiple red) is the culprit. About two years ago I thought it would be great to run it on salad oil (partially) and that really broke the injection pump.
(Warning to all: don't run this type of engine with the Lucas injection pump on salad-oil!)

I replaced this daily commuter with another (105 JTD) but kept this one on the drive (my wife really hates that).
I managed to get an identical (Lucas, number and all) pump and fitted it - the car didn't start.

Now the bad bit: I threw the old pump away but never changed the chip over (which I didn't know about until today, when I read a thread here).

I didn't have enough time then and so it is only now that I decided to get back to it. Unfortunately, now, after standing still for well over a year, the "Code" -Key logo on the dash board stays on and it still won't start - obviously. I have tried the red and two blue keys, but it won't work. (With enough battery juice the engine turns over all right.)

So, after all this I will come to the reason of this posting: I am wondering if anyone has a clever, yet workable and preferably helpful idea how I can overcome this.
Also, I have considered having the ECU de-coded and I would like to have some (expert) opinion whether that would possibly do the trick. (And if so, where is the ECU located?)

Help!?

decoding the ecu is the easiest solution, ask Tony here http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/datarecall/

i'm not sure where the ecu is located on a TD, and strangely the fiat workshop manual doesn't say where it is

the attached pic shows where the ecu's are for other models, so i would check those locations first.

jug said:

decoding the ecu is the easiest solution, ask Tony here http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/datarecall/

i'm not sure where the ecu is located on a TD, and strangely the fiat workshop manual doesn't say where it is

the attached pic shows where the ecu's are for other models, so i would check those locations first.

Click to expand...

Jug. I think he is still refering to the 100Td and not the 105Jtd, hence the pump governs the timing not an ECU.

TDukk

it sounds like the same Lucas pump design as used on the Peugeot XUD engine. If so then this is how i see it.

The pump is coded via a little black box clipped onto the side of it. This recieves a coded signal from the ignition. The code should be written on the old pump.

Your new pumps black box is still coded to its old car.
You need the black box off the old pump.

However. the imobiliser works by supplying power to the stop solenoid. without the correct code the black box attached to the pump will not send a live signal to the stop solenoid which then lifts the plunger and allows diesel to flow into the pump.

To resolve this you can carefully drill out the rivits holding the metal cover that prevents access to the solonoid, or cut it away (the plate is there to stop thieves doing what i'm teling you, thus bypassing the solenoid)

Once you have access you can unscrew the solenoid long 24mm socket is required. Then remove the plunger from inside it. The car will now start. Without a working solenoid though you will need to stall the car to stop it. As that plunger is what turns off the fuel like a tap.
Fitting a new solenoid and wiring into a live ignition feed would be the solution.

It must also be possible to reprogram the black box

Good luck.

bridges said:

It must also be possible to reprogram the black box

Click to expand...

i bet tony could do it (should be the same as decoding an ecu) http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/datarecall/

Jug! Bridges!

Thanks for the swift replies.

I am still messing with the 100 TD. (It currently lives on the brink of the abyss aka the scrapyard.)

I think I may have two different yet connected problems.
One is with the ECU because the "Code" light stays on, even with the red key. I believe that was not the case when we first installed the new(-ish) pump. So, I will contact Tony as advised.
The other is (was) with the pump itself. I had already taken the plunger out (incl. a neat "cutout") and a quick mechanic had previously snipped the wires as well. But I dumped the old pump including the original black box. I will see if I can fit another "standard" solenoid. Also, I think it will need some mechanical tuning, but first things first.

Thanks again for now. I may post again if I have solved the mess.

And DOH again!

I can't find it and I am getting the suspicion that there may not be a separate ECU, hence the Fiat manual doesn't mention it and is basically what Bridges said, but I didn't connect the dots.
There are two little black boxes on the pump - one, easily accessible on the top (red circle), and another, slim rectangular thing, underneath (arrow indicating location - too dark). I can feel it like a particularly gruelling scene in a cheap horror movie coming up, it is going to be the bottom one, which means I have to take the whole pump out again.



To put a face to this case, this is the offender about two years ago.



The stub at the rear is a detachable tow bar. The rims are 15" steelies off a Barchetta (£10 ebay).

So much for an update.

PS: Couldn't reach Tony - something with the phone - sent email.

TDukk said:

I am getting the suspicion that there may not be a separate ECU

Click to expand...

yes it seems that is the case. in hindsight it isnt surprising because there is no ignition and the fueling is controlled by the pump so there is no need for an ecu.

Wait :idea: :idea:

Now most diesels will start so long as there is no stop solenoid.

1, prime the pump using the priming squeeze thingy.
2, crack undone the bleed on the pump, can be seen in the pic (nut with 1" pipe sticking up) diesel should be coming out when you squeeze.

3, check using one of those stupid lighting screw drivers, by attaching one end on battery earth and the other on the glow plug wire. power up the glow plugs screwdriver should light for 30 odd seconds.

4, all good so far? then get someone to crank the engine and crack open the injector pipes as they enter the injectors. You should see diesel spluttering out.

5, How are we getting on If all is good then remember the injectors themselves need pressure to open. It is sometimes a good idea to tow the car drop in to 4th and gently let the clutch up, this will spin the pump over fast creating sufficient pressure.

hope this helps

It is the black box out of reach on rear side of pump
should not be an issue as it only prevents the stop solenoid from opening. But you have bypassed it

Bridges!

That sounds like a plan ... and I fell at the first hurdle. Not strictly true, I tried step 3 just to make sure that the glow plugs do their job. And the answer seems to be: No.

Well the battery is not at its best and the wife took the current mode of transport away for the day, a different big brute diesel - so I tried with a small battery which sits in a 1600 petrol car and when I tried to start the Bravo with the jump leads on - the petrol motor stopped, as in 'conked out'. So I didn't think it was an appropriate idea any longer.

But there was no light off the glow plug with the "stupid lighting screw driver" (6-12V)! I tried to check by switching the ignition on and then dive under the bonnet, I don't think I missed it. I will try again later this evening.

Thing is, when I turn the ignition on, the glow plug logo does not come on. The only dashboard lights on are: Battery, Oil and Code (Code actually goes off when I try to turn the engine over but still does not go off on its own as it's supposed to.)

Are there any fuses that could be affected?

I drove an old Landrover which had a switch to glow the plugs "manually" - that could look cool in a Bravo?!

Of course I will still attempt the 4th gear treatment but I will have to enlist some help for that.

Probably more later. Thanks for all the help and patience up to now.

PS: Tony sent an email with a different contact number. I will obviously wait and see, the way this is going I may not need the box de-coded as far as I understand now.

Did hear of one guy that wired out the switch on a turbo, but it ran pretty rough, due maybe to lack of turbo control. I guess there must be an ecu there somwhere to control things and it may well communicate with immo to make it behave properly, so linking around pump may well get the car running, but heaters and turbo might be a problem.
T.
BTW cant get into webpage to change contact, dont know why, but only got dial-up at present.
mobile No is 07956 526692

The Fiat, I seem to think has some sort of electrical immobilizer control regarding the glowplugs.

you could temporarily bypass them by hot wiring direct to a live battery feed, whilst cranking over the engine. no longer than 30 secs at a time though.

This will maybe be an issue longterm as reddy4bed says I think there might be some electrical immobilizer system linked to both the solenoid and Glow plugs'
Bypassing/rewiring solenoid will not be an issue so long as the fuel line is clear when running, it will run beautifully. Have done this technique myself.

Normally mechanical diesels such as these do not have an ecu. The diesel engine works by fuel alone. There is a pump when you accelerate it increases fuel and
thus speed increases. the engine sucks in its required air. good old tractor mechanics.

Sooo....

I found the relay switch (huge thing under the battery tray) which does the glow and connected another wire to the positive that switches this relay and it works. The plugs glow (well, the silly screwdriver light does) and the glow logo (coil) on dashboard comes on too. Currently together with the injector logo telling me that there is a lack of fuel, which is correct. Bonus.
I pulled the wire all the way through the bulkhead (easiest in was through the foamy rim of the blower, had to take the black covers off) and ended up next to the internal fuse box, where I will find a positive lead with ignition on only. I have to find some sexy new button too!
Next step is to just trial this array, but the battery is not performing well any more, so that'll have to be replaced first.

The good thing: up to now I could reverse all my actions to square one without damage.

I will report again next week.

Again, thanks for the encouraging help.

Is sounding good.

good luck.

you will just need to replace the solenoid with a generic lucas one to get it going again, and use the ignition supply that comes to the immo box underneath the pump to open it. disconnect the immo box underneath the dash to kill the light on the dash. No need for extra wires or anything else. But its a pig of a job you nearly need to take the engine out to get at the pump/solenoid.

his solenoid is already exposed

Stylers!

Thx for the info. As bridges rightly says "The solenoid is exposed!" (Deep voice here). So a standard Lucas item will be easy to install and should only need a positive line.
Good hint about the box, but I have the pump and all the jungle around it re-installed neatly. So, unless something else is fundamentally wrong with the pump and I have to take it out again - I just run the two wires.
I ordered "6 YELLOW Momentary OFF-(ON) Push-Button Switches" yesterday. There were cheaper by the half-dozen.

More information with success - or doom - depending on the outcome.
(Positive thoughts, positive thoughts, positive thoughts, ...)

So, tata 4 now.

Tdukk

I think that it is the relay itself which times the glow plugs. If I am correct in this belief then all you will need to do is use a live that only becomes live once the ignition is primed. This wired into the relay will power up the relay once the key is turned and the relay after 30seconds will switch itself off.

I assume the relay remains off until the live is turned off and then turned on again.

Anyone out there to confirm this?

ps, have you checked the fuses.

Confirmed!

Bridges! I can confirm your conclusion. The plugs glow and stop glowing AND re-glow if needed - fully functional. The worrying part: even the solenoid (universal thing now) can be fed by the original lecki supply - it would have worked with the original! The code on the dash goes off too!

So, I bled as instructed. The injector pipes didn't exactly splutter, rather trickle. I repeated the process three times.

The new battery was quickly drained and it sounded as if it would start. I pushed the car down the road with 4th gear engaged and it ignited! It revved really high but only for about 10 seconds. Since my dad previously basically all but filled the fuel-filter with Redex there was a huge cloud of black smoke. Then it stopped and wouldn't start again. I didn't try the 4th gear push again (for now).

Thing is, I am confident that I installed the pump properly. I am also confident that the then new timing-belt was installed correctly too. I followed the instructions on the packet with the lining up of markings.

So if I now accept that the immobiliser is immobilised and the glow and fuel-stop work (I also checked both again with regards to electrickery) then I should possibly ask the question: is there anything that needs doing after installing a different (2nd hand) injector-pump with new belts (I also replaced the v-belt)? Besides bleeding the system. Perhaps something like timing?

On another note, I will have to think where to put those six buttons which will be arriving from Hong Kong soon. Doh.

Quote: "The point of no return is the point beyond which someone must continue on their current course of action ..."

TDukk said:

is there anything that needs doing after installing a different (2nd hand) injector-pump with new belts (I also replaced the v-belt)? Besides bleeding the system. Perhaps something like timing?

Click to expand...

you must always make sure the pump timing is correct when fitting the pump. how did you set the pump timing when you fitted it?