Jug!

I did not do any setting of timing of the pump when I installed it.

It seemed straightforward since the pump can only be installed one way to sit in the space provided - mind you I put the replacement in the same way as the old one, according to some scratched markings. The three bolts can only be put in one way to hold the cog. Then the markings on the timing belt provide the correct positions of all cogs (injector pump, camshaft and crankshaft) relative to each other.

Have I missed something? Or just have I only lost the plot?

the pulley mark needs to line up with the belt cover mark. there are marks for everything on the car, so you dont use the marks on the belt.

see the attached sheet from the fiat workshop manual.

If it fired on all cylinders for a few seconds then i'm thinking the timing was ok.
Or did it run like a tractor???

Yes. As Jug says the pump is timed it determines the firing order.

it sounds to me like the car fired on the diesel that was in the filter. then could not get any more. fill the filter housing does it restart?

You could well have air in the system. keep persisting.

ps, anyone know if there is a primary pick up pump in the tank. My Xud does not but this is a fiat..

Hopefully, I will be able to kick this habit of rummiging in an engine compartment after I get this thing back on the road!

This is the diagram on the box which the new cambelt came in. (Notice how I hadn't thrown this empty cartion out, just the unimportant pump!)



All three markings had been aligned and the markings on the belt fitted too. I suppose the belt-markings are just there to make sure it is fitted correctly and that the correct amount of teeth is between each stage.

The 10 sec black smoking roar when the engine ran sounded fairly all right and as if all cylinders were involved. It was a bit of an exciting moment since I tried not to explode the engine in the process. Also, I remember that I turned off the ignition since I had no throttle control, even though the pedal moves.

I don't know about an actual fuel pump, but I think there is one. When I turn the ignition on there is a fast "ticking" noise in the engine compartment which stops when the glow coil logo goes out. The injector logo also lights up first and then goes out and does so before the glow coil logo.
I always thought that was a kind of priming thing - but I have no knowledge or evidence - just a hunch.

I just checked the squeezy hand-primer thing and it was not filled solid. What I mean is, after squeezing a few times it feels hard an solid (and I am still talking about the primer thing!). Should that be naturally filled?

Enough about me, what do you think?

yes thats the primer, and no it should not stay rock hard.

bridges said:

ps, anyone know if there is a primary pick up pump in the tank.

Click to expand...

i believe it has, but for some reason the fiat workshop manual does not show it on the fuel system diagram so i may be wrong.

Jug!

Thanks for that.

I just undid the fuel-filter and it is full. I will buy a new one - just in case.
Before I cock that exchange up - it will be straightforward just hand prime afterwards, I assume.

I will also get a new airfilter, it is filthy, but that is only besides.

I will repeat the bleeding procedure (no, I am not swearing) and then try again once the battery has recovered. Even with another car jumpstarting, the (brand-new) battery runs out.

More tales of the unexpected later.

If the fuel filter housing is good then that is a good sign.

My thought was that a small pump in the tank might supply diesel to the mechanical pump. Although most mechanical pumps suck it up from the tank.
If there was another pump and this was not working then the car would use the contents of the diesel filter housing to run on and then run out as this diesel ran out. So if the housing is full then all is ok.


TDukk. Did you remember to put the solenoid back in minus the plunger?
Are all the bleed points locked down?

I can't fathom why it reved out? have you manually checked the throttle movement on the pump. pull the lever attached to the cable. It should pull against a damper.

Bridges!

Yes, the fuel filter was (and is) full. I still ordered a new filter since I want to make sure it works properly. Fingers x-ed I might have it by the weekend.

I installed a shiny new universal (FAI - SOL100) solenoid which fits perfectly and gave it positive juice only. Obviously, the plunger is now in ..., but it should work? I did bleed the fuel lines on the injectors and fuel trickled out.

The accelerator cable seems to work fine. I depressed the pedal and watched the lever being pulled back to the stop. At the time of the high revving I did not use the accelerator at all.

The battery is nearly charged and I will try again tomorrow, even without the new fuel-filter.

TTFN

The pump timing could be incorrect, as the pump can be rotated slightly on the three bolts, there is a way of setting it but that needs special tools.
you'll might just have to try again. There is no lift pump in the tank. you should be able to bleed and prime a new filter correctly by opening the small bleed nipple on top of the injector pump, turning on the ignition and pump the hand primer until no more air comes out of the nipple.
you say you have the ticking noise which means that the ECU is working correctly. If it still revs up of its own accord, then there is something wrong with the pump, or the engine is sucking in oil or fuel somewhere.. btw why was the filter full of redex like you describe ?. sounds like more harm than good..

Stylers!

Thanks for the thumbs up on the ECU and the information about the non-existing lift pump in the tank.

I will see if I can get someone to check the timing - tricky that.

The Redex was poured in the filter by my dad just to make sure there was sufficient fuel in the supply. I actually doubt that it was pure Redex, just a high concentration. But I am not sure why this would be harmful besides that it doesn't burn cleanly or possibly as easily.

Still waiting for the new fuel filter - more then.

Thanks again for everybody's help and patience. It will work, it will work ...

redex is 95% kerosene so you can run your engine on pure redex but it will rev very high. actually now i think about it that is probably why it revved so highly before.

Jug!

Now we're cooking with .. kerosene. I suppose not a lot of people know that? You think the airline would mind if I syphon off a couple of pints next flight on the jumbo?
Since kerosene is a lighter kinda diesel it won't have hurt then?
At least that would explain the revving as you say, Jug. Phew!

I know Stylers said it takes some specialist tools to set the timing on the injector pump, but what would these tools be? The pump is held by three bolts which could be slackened to move/rotate the pump in situ. There is also some space for the cog to rotate but that is tricky since its position is held by the belt too.

I think I should add that I placed the re-placement (not quite new) pump in the same position as the original one (as close as).

Ahh, well, onwards and upwards. (Some more kerosene, pilot?)

setting exact timing of the pump depends on make but is usually achieved by special tool kits and a dial pointer. you might or might not have got it right. It won't rev up on its own with incorrect timing though. just run badly/not start at all..

With the Lucas pumps you are usuallly ok so long as you set the timing marks up on the pump. I'm in total agreement with the lads here. If it was not timed correctly then it would run rough and be reluctant to start or run . If timing was further out then it would simply not run.

Back again!

Stylers! Bridges!

Thanks for the input.

I think I understand now that the injector-pump itself has an internal timing which is factory set and requires some fancy gadgets. Since I did not tamper with these settings of the pump itself (all still sealed), I will leave it well alone, unless "all other possibilities have been ruled out, the improbable, however unlikely," may be true and I will have to get back to this.

I looked closely at the two markings of the pump- and camshaft-cogs again. (I haven't looked at the crankshaft-cog - yet - since it is of course hidden away.) I found that when the camshaft-cog timing mark is lined up with the marking on the casing (as per image from 3 days ago), the pump-cog marking is off by about half a tooth now. Well, what I mean is it is on a groove in the cog rather than on the tooth with the mark. (I could take a pic?! Trick to get the angle right! Just checked.))
Accepting that the pump is fitted within minute fractions of a millimeter (eyeball says: precision) where the old one sat, then could this half-tooth mismatch cause the engine not to start?
Thing is, the pump-cog on can be rotated slightly since the three bolts that hold it in place sit in slots rather than holes and the cog may have moved?
If I were to correct this, wouldn't it stretch the belt?

I should mention that I had several attempts to fire the engine up again over the weekend. A friendly (but expensive) mechanic suggested spraying brake-cleaner in the air intake whilst cranking - that almost seemed to do the trick. The engine sounded like it was going to start. Cranking faster and faster in the process. But just not starting.

I may need counselling eventually.

i think there is an allowance of half a tooth on the injector pump, belt slack may account for this when fitting, but it should be right when the belt has tensioned up properly. If the timing was off badly enough to prevent starting, you should at least be getting exhaust smoke when cranking, if not, loosen off an injector pipe and make sure you are getting good drops of diesel to the injectors when cranking. Just to be sure that your new solenoid is working properly. you should hear an audible click from the solenoid when its powered up. Were you able to bleed the fuel system properly ?. Be careful when cracking open injector fittings, high pressure fuel spray can go through skin.

Stylers!

I checked the timing again and found that I looked at it wrongly, it was spot on. I previously left a tippex mark half a tooth off the real mark - stupid me.

The solenoid gets electrics all right. I took it out again and checked the action several times (in, out, in, out, in, out, ... I think I should stop now).

The system has been bled several times and I will do that again. The one puzzling thing: when I slacken one of the injector fittings open during cranking, fuel comes out, but there is no "high pressure fuel spray". I am not taking the fitting off completely, it is just to bleed. When I had the fittings off previously there was indeed only drops of fuel no continuous stream.

I had not checked for exhaust fumes yet, I do that later this afternoon (can't do these things properly on my own, legs are too short). However there was definately a big black exhaust fume when the engine ran once on the saturated Redex mix.

Thanks for now, I'll report back.

In total agreement with stylers.

to follow on, loosen two injector pipes at a time (only a tad as diesel under high pressure can kill) just enough to loose diesel/air under pressure. crank her over lock down injectors and do the next two. repeat and then if neccessary tow the old girl down the road.

The trouble is you need that pump spinning fast to get the diesel through the injectors. a tow and dropping into 4th usually builds up the pressure..

Me, again.

I just had my wife twist the key so I could crack open and bleed the injector lines as suggested. There seems to be no air in there - no splutter - but again, no great rush of fuel either. I completely undid one line and there was only a drop coming out.
Somebody suggested that if you crank long enough even minor trapped air would disperse eventually!?

Now I assume that it is as Bridges says, the pump is not spinning fast enough. The new battery is the minimum requirement (62Ah and 560cca - they didn't have the higher cranking version when I wanted it) and it does not crank for all that long. It would be sufficient if the car started without making all this trouble.
I will put an A-frame on and be towed with that and trying the 4th gear thing again.
I am just wondering, if the 4th gear thing works what happens afterwards? If the pump never spins fast enough on start, how will it work?

On a mere interested note: how could the bio-diesel (salad-oil) ruin the old pump in the first place? Someone said something about the lubricating properties were not sufficient for this type of pump? Or is it more agressive and attack seals? (No, not clubbing them!) And could the pump (or seals therein) be damaged just standing around with a Redex/salad-oil solution in it?

With worried regards.

when you crank the pump over on the battery. Low pressure in the lines caused by air etc. Will not allow the actual injectors to open and squirt diesel into the cylinders. The starter can only spin the engine over relatively slowly. The faster the pump spins then more pressure will be put on the fuel. Use the accelerator as well.
by engaging 4th once rolling it will spin the engine and pump over much faster.

don't loose faith. I had this and my injectors were behaving as yours are now. It will start


The diesel is what lubricates all the mechanical workings of the pump.
Therefore a poor quality oil might have as you suggest be insufficient to lubricate effectively.