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Old 1 Week Ago   #76
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

I loved our TwinAir, but Fiat missed a trick with the marketing. Yes it had low CO2 in the tests and that probably got them a fair few sales from people wishing to avoid the Congestion Charge in London. However they might've not got so much bad press about it if they'd not made such a lot of noise about the MPG.

We got late 40's to early 50's MPG out of our 500 TwinAir (85bhp) over 30-35k miles, which given the turn of pace vs the 1.2 8v is perfectly acceptable in my book. The trouble is Fiat claimed it'd do 67.3mpg. We all know (or we should) that modern engines rarely reach their claimed MPG, but the TwinAir fell particularly short. If Fiat had made more of the other benefits vs the cheaper 1.2 (pace, character etc) instead of focussing so much on MPG & CO2, it might've sold more, long-term. Granted they mentioned 'fun' but I remember the 'lowest CO2 petrol car engine, in the World' being the original TV advert wording. Of course that'd be based on the official mpg being met, which it wasn't by the majority of owners. The bad press that followed would only serve to harm sales and push people towards another car, or the cheaper 1.2 if they had to have a 500.

We don't know that it's stopped being offered, but given the new 1.0 engine's are coming online in the facelifted Jeep Renegade, and a facelifted 500X is coming, I could see why Fiat might offer the 1.0 in the regular 500 too. The 1.2 8v is pretty miserable compared to what it was. They still seem the engine of choice in the new 500's i've seen, but I'd not buy one over a TwinAir now, they feel strangled.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #77
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by AGH1965 View Post
That is just your opinion, but you are not the only one who thinks that way. Therefore legislation has been changed. Next month we'll see the WLTP results of all cars. These are supposed to be more representative than the NEDC results we are discussing about right now.
Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
I literally have no idea what youíre actually talking about.
Well, maybe you should do some research then, because the way how CO2 emissions and official mpg figures have to be determined is described in European legislation. FIAT can't ignore that. FIAT has to obey the European laws.

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
It is not Ďmy opinioní that the tests are supposed to be representative, there would be absolutely no point in doing the tests if it wasnít to get an idea of what the likely fuel economy of the car would be even if the goal is to decide on tax banding, the need an idea of the likely figures on the car.
The official mpg figures published up to now are not representative because legislation demanded that. If you want to blame someone, then don't blame FIAT, but blame the politicians in Brussels. FIAT was just obeying the law.

I just downloaded a British FIAT 500 brochure and it contains a similar disclaimer as the brochures in my country:

Quote Quote:
Fuel Consumption and CO2 emissions figures are based on standard EU tests for comparative purposes and may not reflect real driving results.
This way FIAT UK politely apologises for unrealistic official mpg figures that are the result of ridiculous legislation.

However, legislation has been changed. Next month FIAT may no longer use these old CO2 and mpg values, but has to publish values that were determined by means of the new WLTP cycle. For sure this means higher CO2 emissions and lower official mpg figures. That means that these will be more representative. I guess that will make you happy.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #78
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Quote Originally Posted by AGH1965 View Post
Well, maybe you should do some research then, because the way how CO2 emissions and official mpg figures have to be determined is described in European legislation. FIAT can't ignore that. FIAT has to obey the European laws.



The official mpg figures published up to now are not representative because legislation demanded that. If you want to blame someone, then don't blame FIAT, but blame the politicians in Brussels. FIAT was just obeying the law.

I just downloaded a British FIAT 500 brochure and it contains a similar disclaimer as the brochures in my country:



This way FIAT UK politely apologises for unrealistic official mpg figures that are the result of ridiculous legislation.

However, legislation has been changed. Next month FIAT may no longer use these old CO2 and mpg values, but has to publish values that were determined by means of the new WLTP cycle. For sure this means higher CO2 emissions and lower official mpg figures. That means that these will be more representative. I guess that will make you happy.
Youíre missing the point though, others are able to make cars which are more economical in real life whilst still appearing economical under the NEDC tests...
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Old 6 Days Ago   #79
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by AGH1965 View Post
Well, maybe you should do some research then, because the way how CO2 emissions and official mpg figures have to be determined is described in European legislation. FIAT can't ignore that. FIAT has to obey the European laws.
You have completely missed the point of this thread.

The point is and the whole discussion IS that fiat are catering to the legal requirements, but in doing so are ripping off their own customers to do so. Which from what youíve said previously, youíre ok with.

Please go back to the beginning of the thread and start again.
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Old 6 Days Ago   #80
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

FIAT optimised the TA more extremely for the NEDC than others. There is nothing wrong with that. Most customers don't care about real fuel economy at all.

However, I think that if the WLTP would have been introduced 10 years earlier, then there wouldn't have been a TA. In my opinion the TA is the result of ridiculous legislation. As if FIAT thought: "If you want me to play a foolish game, then I play it to the max."
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Quote Originally Posted by AGH1965 View Post
FIAT optimised the TA more extremely for the NEDC than others. There is nothing wrong with that. Most customers don't care about real fuel economy at all.

However, I think that if the WLTP would have been introduced 10 years earlier, then there wouldn't have been a TA. In my opinion the TA is the result of ridiculous legislation. As if FIAT thought: "If you want me to play a foolish game, then I play it to the max."
What? Most customers DO care about fuel economy because it costs them money. I think you need to step out of your dream world and get into the real world...
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Old 6 Days Ago   #82
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Yes, fuel costs money, but most people don't drive a lot. A 10 percent difference in fuel econoly makes a difference of only a few euros each month. That is neglectible.

Besides, most people can easily save more than 10 percent by (slightly) modifying their driving style. If these few euros a month would be that important for them, then they would surely do so.
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Quote Originally Posted by AGH1965 View Post
Yes, fuel costs money, but most people don't drive a lot. A 10 percent difference in fuel econoly makes a difference of only a few euros each month. That is neglectible.

Besides, most people can easily save more than 10 percent by (slightly) modifying their driving style. If these few euros a month would be that important for them, then they would surely do so.
Quite frankly youíre talking crap. The average person in the U.K. drives 12k miles a year, so a 10% deficit in economy so it does make a difference.
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Old 6 Days Ago   #84
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by 306maxi View Post
Quite frankly you’re talking crap. The average person in the U.K. drives 12k miles a year, so a 10% deficit in economy so it does make a difference.
And yet you are holding vw upto a magical 10% better than everyone else. I would be more concerned personally with a company having to detune their engines to improve economy and emissions. But I am lucky in only have to do around 5k miles per year.( I also think annual mileage average is 8k)

https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...#table-nts0901
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Quote Originally Posted by lsgraham_uk View Post
And yet you are holding vw upto a magical 10% better than everyone else. I would be more concerned personally with a company having to detune their engines to improve economy and emissions. But I am lucky in only have to do around 5k miles per year.( I also think annual mileage average is 8k)

https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...#table-nts0901
Maybe I got that slightly wrong

Thereís nothing wrong with detuning for efficiency. My 320d has 22bhp and 20Nm less than the standard one, but it gives a massive improvement in fuel economy for a barely noticeable change in acceleration (7.7 vs 7.3s to 60mph).
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Old 6 Days Ago   #86
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by 306maxi View Post
Maybe I got that slightly wrong

Thereís nothing wrong with detuning for efficiency. My 320d has 22bhp and 20Nm less than the standard one, but it gives a massive improvement in fuel economy for a barely noticeable change in acceleration (7.7 vs 7.3s to 60mph).
If their is one company who seem to make magical engines it is definitely BMW. I could never get on with the floor hinged accelerator though.

My main issue with Vw is that they cheated and yet only America got compensation automatically. I would still be annoyed if I was buying a gti (or cupra r) and they started to reduce the power.
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Quote Originally Posted by lsgraham_uk View Post
If their is one company who seem to make magical engines it is definitely BMW. I could never get on with the floor hinged accelerator though.

My main issue with Vw is that they cheated and yet only America got compensation automatically. I would still be annoyed if I was buying a gti (or cupra r) and they started to reduce the power.
Personally I donít see why anyone deserves any compensation?

My BMW is greener than most 500s purely on fuel, but Iíd be lying through my teeth if I said Iíd done it for the environment. If I really wanted to be environmentally friendly Iíd have bought a BEV. Anyone driving an ICE vehicle and claiming to be environmentally friendly needs a slap across the face.

I bought my BMW because Iím cheap, I started my new job driving my Subaru and it was doing less than 20mpg, the BMW does an average over work and local miles of 68mpg indicated, with my yearly fuel bill for the BMW being about 3,000 the Subaru would have been costing ~10 just to fuel it, not taking into consideration services twice as often and it just generally costing more to run.

One thing Iím not considering is the environment...
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Old 6 Days Ago   #88
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by 306maxi View Post
Personally I donít see why anyone deserves any compensation?

My BMW is greener than most 500s purely on fuel, but Iíd be lying through my teeth if I said Iíd done it for the environment. If I really wanted to be environmentally friendly Iíd have bought a BEV. Anyone driving an ICE vehicle and claiming to be environmentally friendly needs a slap across the face.

I bought my BMW because Iím cheap, I started my new job driving my Subaru and it was doing less than 20mpg, the BMW does an average over work and local miles of 68mpg indicated, with my yearly fuel bill for the BMW being about 3,000 the Subaru would have been costing ~10 just to fuel it, not taking into consideration services twice as often and it just generally costing more to run.

One thing Iím not considering is the environment...

Drop in resale values, dishonesty and for too many stupid names!

It was more the fact that people who bought the same product were treated differently depending on market location. Either give no compensation or to everyone seems fairer.

I am lucky in that my fuel costs have dropped since I first started driving - mostly due to reduced mileage - so I don't really care about fuel consumption. I would say though that my first car a 1.1 fiesta lx mk3 gave me comparable fuel economy to my current abarth - that is decent progress.
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Old 6 Days Ago   #89
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by 306maxi View Post
The average person in the U.K. drives 12k miles a year, so a 10% deficit in economy so it does make a difference.
The average TA will probably not even make 5k miles a year.
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by lsgraham_uk View Post
Drop in resale values, dishonesty and for too many stupid names!

It was more the fact that people who bought the same product were treated differently depending on market location. Either give no compensation or to everyone seems fairer.

I am lucky in that my fuel costs have dropped since I first started driving - mostly due to reduced mileage - so I don't really care about fuel consumption. I would say though that my first car a 1.1 fiesta lx mk3 gave me comparable fuel economy to my current abarth - that is decent progress.
But there's wasn't really any drop in value only in America
And I still stand bythe fact that if it was a us auto maker they wouldn't have attend an eyelid
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