Register Login
FIAT Auto Specialist Team
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-08-2018   #16
STOP! Hammer time!
 
306maxi's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Welsh Riviera
Posts: 23,688
Thanks: 845
Trader Rating: 0
306maxi has donated!
United Kingdom 
Quote Originally Posted by Mick F View Post
Hi guys.
Not been here much recently.

We looked at buying a Renault Zoe some time back, and the cost of the battery rental was much more than the cost of the petrol we had been using over the years. Yes, the lecky was cheaper than petrol, but the cost of the petrol plus cost of the lecky was more than we were paying per year on a non-zero VED car.
Now, we have a Yaris Hybrid on zero VED.
EV cars don't even get a look-in with running cost with us.

How far do you have to drive to even break even? Doing the maths, the Renault Zoe makes no sense at all even if you must pay VED.

We do 6,000miles a year absolute maximum.

Mick.
For people doing low mileage, itís going to take a long time to pay you back, if ever.

I have done 47,000 miles in the last 16 months, so anything that can reduce my running costs it will make a rather big difference
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

306maxi is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 01-08-2018   #17
Happy Chappy
 
Mick F's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall
Posts: 1,468
Thanks: 57
Trader Rating: 0
Mick F has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

MPG.

Miles per gallon.
What is the cost of a gallon of petrol now?
Let's say you do 40mpg.
That's perhaps 4.5Ltrs per 40miles = £1.30 per litre = £5.80 per imperial gallon that will get you 40miles.
That's 14p per mile perhaps?

What does an EV car cost per mile including the battery rental?

Last time I looked., Renault were charging about £50 per month in battery rental alone, let alone the lecky to charge the thing up.

We personally don't pay anywhere near £50 a month in petrol - perhaps £30 per month. We have done 5,500 miles in the last year.

It doesn't make sense at all to run an EV unless they reduce the price of them.

Mick.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Mick F is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 01-08-2018   #18
STOP! Hammer time!
 
306maxi's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Welsh Riviera
Posts: 23,688
Thanks: 845
Trader Rating: 0
306maxi has donated!
United Kingdom 
Quote Originally Posted by Mick F View Post
MPG.

Miles per gallon.
What is the cost of a gallon of petrol now?
Let's say you do 40mpg.
That's perhaps 4.5Ltrs per 40miles = £1.30 per litre = £5.80 per imperial gallon that will get you 40miles.
That's 14p per mile perhaps?

What does an EV car cost per mile including the battery rental?

Last time I looked., Renault were charging about £50 per month in battery rental alone, let alone the lecky to charge the thing up.

We personally don't pay anywhere near £50 a month in petrol - perhaps £30 per month. We have done 5,500 miles in the last year.

It doesn't make sense at all to run an EV unless they reduce the price of them.

Mick.
Not all companies charge for battery rental. BMW for instance doesnít charge battery rental. The one thing that should be mentioned is that paying battery rental gives you a warranty. So itís not quite as simple as you make out.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

306maxi is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 01-08-2018   #19
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Norfolk UK
Posts: 9,076
Thanks: 392
Blog Entries: 8
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

1 gallon of fuel is £5.90 (at a rate of £1.30 a litre) I get 60 mpg so about 10p a mile way cheaper than 14p a mile.

1000miles a month (I actually do this a week at the moment) = £100 a month in fuel.

Using over night rates to charge your ev and having the right supplier (not counting free charging at work which a lot of people with Evís do have access to) and you can pay as little as 2p a mile... £20 per 1000 miles, I think that difference for a fairly average mileage makes the EV cheaper and you donít have any expensive bills if the battery goes wrong
__________________
Maker and voice behind the YouTube channel PuntoHowTo 9600 subscribers canít be wrong

And now the owner of a shiny new PuntoHowTo Drivetribe
AndyRKett is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 01-08-2018   #20
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Monifieth
Posts: 271
Thanks: 20
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

Quote Originally Posted by Mick F View Post
MPG.

Miles per gallon.
What is the cost of a gallon of petrol now?
Let's say you do 40mpg.
That's perhaps 4.5Ltrs per 40miles = £1.30 per litre = £5.80 per imperial gallon that will get you 40miles.
That's 14p per mile perhaps?

What does an EV car cost per mile including the battery rental?

Last time I looked., Renault were charging about £50 per month in battery rental alone, let alone the lecky to charge the thing up.

We personally don't pay anywhere near £50 a month in petrol - perhaps £30 per month. We have done 5,500 miles in the last year.

It doesn't make sense at all to run an EV unless they reduce the price of them.

Mick.
As above it isn't quite that simple. Where I work, there is no staff parking. A Council parking permit is circa £90/month for combustion engined vehicles but is free for EV's. Charging points at car parks are also free. Taking these incentives into account an EV like a Nissan Leaf, Renault Zoe or possibly BMW i3 would be cheaper per month than my current 1 Series BMW on a daily commute.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

gazz_bee is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 01-08-2018   #21
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Dorset
Posts: 8,296
Thanks: 872
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

Quote Originally Posted by gazz_bee View Post
As above it isn't quite that simple. Where I work, there is no staff parking. A Council parking permit is circa £90/month for combustion engined vehicles but is free for EV's. Charging points at car parks are also free. Taking these incentives into account an EV like a Nissan Leaf, Renault Zoe or possibly BMW i3 would be cheaper per month than my current 1 Series BMW on a daily commute.




The economic justification for running an EV will likely be based on fiscal considerations, not technical ones. Remove all the incentives and, on a level playing field, operating a new EV will cost you far more than operating a new fossil fuelled vehicle.

So the folks who will benefit from an early uptake will be those who can secure the greatest fiscal benefits. If you need to drive every day into the central London congestion charge zone, you could be almost £3kpa better off with an EV before you even start considering the purchase subsidies and parking discounts. An electric 500 could make a lot of sense in that market.

OTOH if, like Mick, you're living in a rural area and doing 6000 miles/yr, running a new EV will be way more expensive than running a new petrol car. (If you're doing 6000 miles/yr and are even considering buying a new diesel car, then you need therapy.)

For most folks buying new and keeping for 3-4 yrs, depreciation will be your biggest cost and will dwarf your fuel bill. A 3yr 10000 mile/yr pcp on a Leaf, returning the car at the end of the agreement, will set you back a total of £16092.64 net of incentives. That's just a shade under 54p/mile. When I last looked, the equivalent figure for a 500TA (when you could still order one) was about 40p/mile. Both figures exclude fuel, RFL, insurance and servicing.

However, the canny secondhand buyer can do much better than this. If you can live with an old Leaf with degraded range, then there are some good used deals to be had.
__________________


"Just 'cos you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you"


Last edited by jrkitching; 01-08-2018 at 20:56.
jrkitching is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 01-08-2018   #22
Happy Chappy
 
Mick F's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall
Posts: 1,468
Thanks: 57
Trader Rating: 0
Mick F has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

Ok.
I accept that all people aren't like us, but I would suggest that all people aren't like all people, so we aren't unusual in this regard.

We do 5,500miles a year, or that's the way it's been for some years. We are retired, we don't commute, we live in a rural location, and our miles are only social domestic and pleasure. If we didn't live in a rural location, we may not even need a car.

It would therefore seem ideal for us to have an EV as we wouldn't be concerned about range or finding somewhere to charge. Drive the EV car, come home, plug it in and leave it plugged in until we need the car again. We perhaps drive the car three times a week. Sometimes less.

How can the price of an EV car be so high?
What is the reason for having such a cost?
I was in touch with Renault a year or two ago and asked them those questions, and was told that the technology was the cost.
You can buy a Renault Zoe outright but it costs 18grand or thereabouts, or buy one with a battery lease at quite a reasonable 12grand but you have to pay a minimum of £50 a month on top of the cost of the lecky and you are mileage limited.

You get a couple of hundred miles on a full charge, but much less in a rural and hilly area. Lets say 150miles.
It costs about £3 to fill the battery I am told ......... to do 150miles.
£3 in petrol would get us 20miles - instead of 150miles if we were EV.
Saving of 130miles, but we'd still have to pay £50 for the privilege per month, which would mean £4 every time we went out for our three times a week.

I'd rather have an economical petrol car.

Mick.
Likes jrkitching liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Mick F is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 01-08-2018   #23
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Norfolk UK
Posts: 9,076
Thanks: 392
Blog Entries: 8
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

Quote Originally Posted by jrkitching View Post


The economic justification for running an EV will likely be based on fiscal considerations, not technical ones. Remove all the incentives and, on a level playing field, operating an EV will cost you far more than operating a fossil fuelled vehicle.
Despite me pointing out above that running an Ev on a like for like mileage actually worked out a lot cheaper, even factoring in battery lease charges....
__________________
Maker and voice behind the YouTube channel PuntoHowTo 9600 subscribers canít be wrong

And now the owner of a shiny new PuntoHowTo Drivetribe
AndyRKett is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 01-08-2018   #24
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Dorset
Posts: 8,296
Thanks: 872
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
Despite me pointing out above that running an Ev on a like for like mileage actually worked out a lot cheaper, even factoring in battery lease charges....
It doesn't; the battery lease rates work out around 8p/mile, with another 2-3p/mile for the cost of the electricity. I run a petrol Panda for a similar fuel cost (10.2p/mile over the past 85k).

Also on a new car, the extra depreciation on an EV will dwarf any savings you might make on direct running costs.

The pcp rates tell the story; even on a 6000pa contract, I can't find an EV that isn't a Tonka toy for under about £300/month, with another 8-10p/mile battery lease on top of that. You can get an equivalent petrol car for about half the monthly payment, and the battery lease wipes out most if not all of the fuel saving.

As Mick says, it's an expensive way to go down to the shops.

Remember also there's currently a huge fuel duty saving on EV use; if you were to tax electricity for EV use at the same rate as is currently levied on fossil fuels, the relative fuel costs would look very different. Once EV use becomes mainstream, then the government will surely raise that revenue from EV users, one way or another.

Don't get me wrong; I do think the future is electric - but right now, a new EV will only make economic sense if you can secure a fiscal subsidy in one form or another. Secondhand may be a different story, as I've already said.

And beware the small print in battery lease agreements; if you sell the car, you may still be liable for the lease payment unless the new owner agrees to take over your contract. You have to make the monthly payment whether you drive the car or not. At least with a petrol car, you don't have to put fuel in it if you're not using it for awhile.
__________________


"Just 'cos you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you"


Last edited by jrkitching; 01-08-2018 at 21:45.
jrkitching is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 01-08-2018   #25
Happy Chappy
 
Mick F's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall
Posts: 1,468
Thanks: 57
Trader Rating: 0
Mick F has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

2p per mile?

That works out at what?
£5.90 per imperial gallon considering we do 50mpg.
We do (say) 12p per mile.
At (lets say) 6,000miles per year we spend £720pa on petrol as opposed to £120pa on electricity.
Saving of (only) £600pa minus the battery rental or the excess purchase cost and/or depreciation.

Sorry, no deal thank you very much. Not worth it at all, sadly.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Mick F is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 01-08-2018   #26
Happy Chappy
 
Mick F's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall
Posts: 1,468
Thanks: 57
Trader Rating: 0
Mick F has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

Quote Originally Posted by Mick F View Post
Not worth it at all, sadly.
Note my word "sadly".

It is sad that we have to burn all this fossil fuel because the alternative is so expensive. It all comes down to running costs. There is sky-high taxation on fuel, but it is still cheaper to run a petrol or diesel car than use electricity.

If we didn't need a car, we wouldn't have one. Considering the WE in this means we in the world, using an EV makes sense instead of all the pollution and CO2 pumping out. Billions of fossil fuelled cars on the planet and we're all using them.

Give us electric vehicles powered by clean energy ....... but most of all make it economical for us to use them, because if you don't, we won't use them.

Getting off my high horse now,
Mick.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Mick F is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 01-08-2018   #27
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Dorset
Posts: 8,296
Thanks: 872
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

Quote Originally Posted by Mick F View Post
Give us electric vehicles powered by clean energy
EV's are still polluting; they just move the pollution to places where (hopefully) the environment is better able to deal with it.

The first step is to get the most polluting vehicles out of the big cities; which (perhaps surprisingly) does seem to be the focus of current policy.

But don't get me started on the environmental issues associated with planet-wide scale rechargeable battery production, because that opens up another whole new can of worms.
__________________


"Just 'cos you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you"

jrkitching is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 01-08-2018   #28
STOP! Hammer time!
 
306maxi's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Welsh Riviera
Posts: 23,688
Thanks: 845
Trader Rating: 0
306maxi has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

Whilst depreciation on EVs might not be great at present, I rather suspect that in the future itíll be ICE vehicles that suffer the massive depreciation. There will be a crossover point, what that is I donít know...
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

306maxi is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 01-08-2018   #29
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Dorset
Posts: 8,296
Thanks: 872
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

Quote Originally Posted by 306maxi View Post
Whilst depreciation on EVs might not be great at present, I rather suspect that in the future it’ll be ICE vehicles that suffer the massive depreciation. There will be a crossover point, what that is I don’t know...

I think I know what the crossover point will be; it's the point where the overall cost of running an EV becomes less than the overall cost of running a fossil fuelled one.

What I don't know is when it's going to happen, but like yourself, I expect that, one day, it will.

It's going to take some time for the infrastructure to change; if we were starting from scratch, I'd envisage most motorways and trunk routes being something like a powered guided busway where the car becomes self driving, taking power from the road and recharging as it travels, until you're ready to move back onto local roads.
__________________


"Just 'cos you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you"


Last edited by jrkitching; 01-08-2018 at 21:59.
jrkitching is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 01-08-2018   #30
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 150
Thanks: 7
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

Renault Zoe's are pretty cheap second hand, they are perhaps the only ones that make sense.

saying that a new i3 tried to chase my xsr on a sliproad, it was pretty impressive and whilst it was slower it was still pretty nippy. Mind you I wouldn't want to trust the tyres on the front for any cornering, I have seen wide tyres on a lotus elise.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

lsgraham_uk is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Reply
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
3 year old fiat 500 engine give up no warning 1066hastings Lets Talk FIAT 10 08-03-2016 23:15
500 Electric Fiat 500 Conversion FreedomWon Newbie Central 1 30-01-2015 00:40
Panda (Classic) 1994 white Selecta 11,500 miles [M22 MON] homeward Auction Watch 20 26-11-2013 13:48
(T) Electric Fiat 500 ahmett 500 48 13-11-2013 18:48