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Technical Battery Specs.

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Technical Battery Specs.

LiFePO4 batteries are non flammable according to the MSDS. You're probably more likely to have a hydrogen fire.

Tiny LiFe batteries out power massive lead banks by a long way. A single 7.4Ah battery with no cap ran my Fiat fine -and gave at least equal performance. The Ah ratings are just not comparable between modern and Pb chemistries. I mean CCA ratings are at 7.2v. What modern car will actually start at that voltage?

A single 7.4Ah bank is rated for 100A for 5 seconds. That's fine because my 500 registered 80A peak - with the car in gear! The voltage stays close to 13v even with a bit of cranking. Two banks is just for a bit of safety margin in case of bad fuel, lights on, listening to the radio etc. In total I have 700A cranking power while maintaining at least 12v.

Most importantly, LiFe doesn't loose charge immediately when you key off. The alt has a lot less work to do not maintaining inefficient chemistry - I got an immediate 0.2l/100km saving, along with noticeably improved performance.

There's a reason Tesla are targeting sub 2 second 0-60 times with similar batteries. If it weren't for keeping factory stop/ start systems happy, I'd never buy lead again.
 
g8rpi said:
[FONT=&quot]Hi,
If you PM me your VIN I can check for sure on ePer, but it looks like it should be Fiat part Number [/FONT][FONT=&quot]71752830 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Which is a 60AH, 450A EN2 Stop/Start EFB A good (higher CCA) branded alternative would be a[/FONT]n Exide 12V 60Ah Type 905 640CCA EFB
or Varta Blue Dynamic EFB 60AH 560A
part No. 560500056D842
Spec is

  • Voltage: 12 V
  • Battery Capacity: 60 Ah
  • Post Positions
  • Terminal Type: 1
  • Hold-down Type: B13
  • Length: 242 mm
  • Width: 175 mm
  • Height: 190 mm
  • EFB
Forgot to add, That's a size code 027.

Hope this helps,
Robert G8RPI.
Click to expand...

Thanks Robert, PM'd VIN.

I like the idea of fitting AGM but, as you suggest, the temperature thing is a concern so perhaps EFB is the go after all. I'll try to get the Varta if I can obtain one.
 
UFI said:
LiFePO4 batteries are non flammable according to the MSDS. You're probably more likely to have a hydrogen fire.

Tiny LiFe batteries out power massive lead banks by a long way. A single 7.4Ah battery with no cap ran my Fiat fine -and gave at least equal performance. The Ah ratings are just not comparable between modern and Pb chemistries. I mean CCA ratings are at 7.2v. What modern car will actually start at that voltage?

A single 7.4Ah bank is rated for 100A for 5 seconds. That's fine because my 500 registered 80A peak - with the car in gear! The voltage stays close to 13v even with a bit of cranking. Two banks is just for a bit of safety margin in case of bad fuel, lights on, listening to the radio etc. In total I have 700A cranking power while maintaining at least 12v.

Most importantly, LiFe doesn't loose charge immediately when you key off. The alt has a lot less work to do not maintaining inefficient chemistry - I got an immediate 0.2l/100km saving, along with noticeably improved performance.

There's a reason Tesla are targeting sub 2 second 0-60 times with similar batteries. If it weren't for keeping factory stop/ start systems happy, I'd never buy lead again.
Click to expand...

Don't catch fire eh, tell that to this 126
http://www.batteryvehiclesociety.org.uk/bvsorguk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1825
The electrolyte isn't flammable but it the high energy density and low robustness that causes the problem.
Ah ratings are directly comparable to different battery types for the same voltage, batteries of the same Ah store the same energy, that's the point. The difference with types is the energy density (weight and volume) and power capability. Lead acid is still hard to beat for power density which is why most designs have to have very high voltage or use supercapacitors. see https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/221531/supercapacitors-as-car-batteries
Lead acid and LiFe have similar self discharge rates of 5% per month so there is no advantage there. The charge efficiency is also similar. The only advantage with LiFe for fuel consumption is the weight saving. Another issue is temperature range. You can't charge a LiFePO4 battery below 0degC or above 45. Teslas have battery heaters (other Tesla comparisons are not relevant to IC car battery discussions). Max discharge temp is 60 deg. Not an automotive spec unit.
The only fuel consumption saving is due to decreased weight.




Robert G8RPI.
 
UFI said:
I run 350F caps - enough to start a 4 cyl three times (with the alt disconnected). Remember there's a world of difference between what you can sell a consumer and what you can get away with as an enthusiast. I don't recommend anyone use caps alone on a public road, but it is possible, the car will run fine, just don't use any electrical loads with the engine off..

Pb batteries are arguably the oldest tech still on a modern car - super caps are quite literally a century and a half ahead. The supercaps are currently in the Proton, backed up by a LiFe 14.4Ah. It still surprises me whenever I start it or hear it start. Even from cold it usually fires in less than half a second.

As for the EFB/AGM debate, what did Fiat change when they made the change? My bet is nothing.
Click to expand...

Its getting a bit technical for me, but, what's the leakage on the caps, could you leave the car for say two weeks at the airport and it still start?
 
John202020 said:
Its getting a bit technical for me, but, what's the leakage on the caps, could you leave the car for say two weeks at the airport and it still start?
Click to expand...

No,
Leakage is not an issue, but quiesent drain from car equipment like alarm, radio, clock etc. This is where capacitors fall down, poor energy storage. They can deliver their energy in a very short time so have very good power capabilities so good for photo flashes or engine starting.

Robert G8RPI.
 
Piccolo Nero e Bella
I've checked the VIN and can confirm that a 71752830 is the correct Fiat part for your car assuming it has Stop-Start. So that's a 60AH EFB 027L with at least 450A cranking capacity as per my earlier post.
I'd go for a VARTA, Yuasa or Bosch if you can get one.
The non stop start petrol used a 50AH 360A which is probably what the garage fitted.

Robert G8RPI
 
You're right that cap leakage is not an issue. I removed a cap bank from a car I sold and six months later used it while rigging up a custom power window install. Still plenty of power left even after the windows were in.

The cap bank is so small you could easily take it out and even take it with you.

g8rpi said:
Ah ratings are directly comparable to different battery types for the same voltage, batteries of the same Ah store the same energy, that's the point. The difference with types is the energy density (weight and volume) and power capability. Lead acid is still hard to beat for power density which is why most designs have to have very high voltage or use supercapacitors. see https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/221531/supercapacitors-as-car-batteries
Lead acid and LiFe have similar self discharge rates of 5% per month so there is no advantage there. The charge efficiency is also similar. The only advantage with LiFe for fuel consumption is the weight saving. Another issue is temperature range. You can't charge a LiFePO4 battery below 0degC or above 45. Teslas have battery heaters (other Tesla comparisons are not relevant to IC car battery discussions). Max discharge temp is 60 deg. Not an automotive spec unit.
The only fuel consumption saving is due to decreased weight.
Click to expand...

http://www.bclithiumbatteries.com/en/lifepo4_li-ion_lead-acid_batteries.html

Here you can see why you can't compare, why it's generally agreed that a 20Ah LiFe is equivalent to a 60Ah Pb.

LiFe puts out 5x the cranking power per Ah of capacity.

I use supercaps because I installed them the day I bought the car, with the Pb battery. When I switched to LiFe, I saw no reason to remove them.

When I park my car and immediately connect my charger, with Pb it takes 20mins (@7.2A) to reach float. With the LiFe it goes into float as soon as the charger is finished it's diagnostics.

Here's why:

]http://www.freedomwon.co.za/home-battery/lithium-iron-phosphate

70% plays 96% for charge efficiency.

1Ah does not equal 1Ah, that's far too simplistic. Not when one is rated at C/10 and the other is rated a 3C.

Luckily I don't have to worry about sub 0 temps and I'm working on a battery box that will draw intake air through the battery box to keep temps 100% within range.
 
I'm sorry but by definition 1AH = 1AH, True some Lithiums have hiigher discharge rates so a smaller battery can provide the same cranking currnent as a bigger Lead acid. However the Lithium still has smaller energy capacity. Most people will find that if a modern car is left un-attended for 4-5 weeks the battery will not start the car (5 weekes @ 70mA completely flattens a fully charged 60AH battery of any type).
So if you go for your 10:1 reduction in capacity for Lithium your battery will b flat in 3.5 days. Even at 5:1 (12AH in my example) it's only a week. This is not acceptable to most users. People don't wan't to plug their IC cars in to the mains if they park them up and we don't all live in warm climate.
It's an interesting technical challenge and great if you do it as a challenge, but LiFePO4 batteries are not a practical replacement for existing lead acid batteries in IC cars for most owners.

Robert G8RPI.
 
g8rpi said:
@Piccolo Nero e Bella
I've checked the VIN and can confirm that a 71752830 is the correct Fiat part for your car assuming it has Stop-Start. So that's a 60AH EFB 027L with at least 450A cranking capacity as per my earlier post.
I'd go for a VARTA, Yuasa or Bosch if you can get one.
The non stop start petrol used a 50AH 360A which is probably what the garage fitted.

Robert G8RPI
Click to expand...

Many thanks for your trouble, Robert. I'll take that information with me next week when I go to see what this battery place can do for me.

To be fair the battery that the FIAT dealer fitted has performed well even if it's not a start/stop type. It's 600CCA and has been in there for three years during which the S/S has (mostly) worked nominally. I'll retire it to working the automatic gates because it's got plenty of life left in it and the wife's non-S/S Pop already had a battery replacement a few months ago.

Maybe this thread will be useful to anyone else in this situation in future, though I suspect most will simply turn off the S/S.;)
 
It's certainly been useful (and interesting) for me. I now know several UK sources for a new battery if/when I need one, and the discussion on other chemistries has been interesting.
 
g8rpi said:
I'm sorry but by definition 1AH = 1AH
Click to expand...

In the context of what we're talking about it's a bit like saying the MPG from an NEDC test of the same car is comparable to the US EPA test. 1MPG=1MPG right? Even after you convert US to UK gallons it's still a long way off.

Pb vs others are tested to different standards, hence incomparable results.

My Jeep has been known to sit for six months at a time and still always started perfect and I got 11 years out of the Pb battery. My Proton would take 7 months to discharge the 14.4Ah battery to 50% which would still easily start the car.

If standby is an issue, the tiniest of solar panels would be absolutely adequate.

But like I said, I accept there's a difference between what an enthusiast can get away with, and what's 100% OEM ready.
 
Last edited:
UFI
I think we need to agree to disagree on this.
You are correct that some capacity tests ae done at different rates, but this does not make a 4:1 improvement in usable capacity. A 2005 Jeep and 2009 proton are probably not loaded up with electrical technology and quiesent drain. I'll not comment on specialist charging requirements or solar top-up. I've started a new thread here:
https://www.fiatforum.com/tech-talk/455396-replacing-lead-acid-car-batteries-lithium.html?p=4304862

Robert G8RPI.
 
Just a quick update; ordered the battery on Monday. I gave them the specs that Robert supplied but it took them a while to identify the correct one. They persevered and came up with;

1 LN2-60EFB : Delkor 12V 560cca 60Ah (DIN53LH) EFB Automotive Battery - 36Month Warranty - $278

They called yesterday to say it was in, and I was about to set out when they called again this morning to say "don't bother coming down, it's the wrong one (AGM)". Should have the correct one by tomorrow.
 
"Good of them to have checked and saved you a wasted journey."

Yes Trev, It proves someone is on the ball and took the trouble to check and then phone. I've always believed it's not the mistakes that define a business but how it deals with them.

"Almost £160 is quite a bit, guess things cost more there sometimes ?

You're right John, and not just sometimes...
 
Thank you to everybody who contributed to this discussion:worship:. My new battery was fitted today:).

I was given to believe the S/S would need time to 'learn' before it operated but in fact it worked immediately. Of course it was (mostly) working on the old conventional battery which seemed to cope well for 3-1/2 years. Then again, it's a big battery, a very small engine with an undemanding usage pattern and in a mild climate.

There don't seem to be very many S/S 500's in AU but the information is there now if they find themselves looking for the right battery;).

Cheers all
 
Glad it's sorted. Was that price including fitting? If so, it was a bargain by UK standards as a S/S battery here is around the £150 mark.
 
TrevC said:
Glad it's sorted. Was that price including fitting? If so, it was a bargain by UK standards as a S/S battery here is around the £150 mark.
Click to expand...

Actually, £150 is about $270 right now so it's close to even money - but they gave me a bit of a break on the mark-up. No extra for fitting - maybe that was already built in to the price. I was happy to get them to do that - those battery's are heavy!

When I mention the price some people say "What...?", while others, such as a bloke in an auto accessory shop today, say "Hmmm, good price!". The latter knew it was S/S of course.
 
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