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Tuning Remapping a 1.2 Cat6 convertible

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Tuning Remapping a 1.2 Cat6 convertible

jrkitching said:
It may not be likely, but the police can also do a spot roadside check. If they find evidence of a remap, then one phone call to your insurance company and your car will be going to the police pound on a transporter. You will be going home on the bus with a fixed penalty notice for £300 & 6 points in your pocket.
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This is not true, the police have no such equipment to do 'roadside check' to see if the car had been remapped. Aside from the fact there is no one catch all device that can look at every single car on the road to do such a check, the police would not be qualified to know what was a remap versus what is normal parameters. For example my car has the same engine as cars made a month or two before, but mine had a different map giving it 10bhp more, from the factory, there would be nothing to stop someone with an older car using that standard remap on their older lower powered car, at the road side how would he police know what was what ?

Also they talked a couple of years back about MOT testers checking if a car had been modified by checking the ECU map, which quickly went out of the window when they found it just wasn't practical or feasible due to the amount of equipment and specialty knowledge involved.

I know a chap who will remap any car by plugging in and going in and directly editing the parameters of the engine, there is no flash software update meaning the rest of the code remains largely untouched and you would really need to know exactly what you were looking at to know anything had been changed.

And what about the poor bugger who buys a car with absolutely no idea that it has been remapped, you gonna take every new car you buy to get this tested just in case.

Insurance companies again are not going to spend a fortune having the car tested for any remap, usually you don't have an accident unless one party or the other isn't driving like a Twonk, so what map the car is running with would make a difference to that. And if you have an accident because you're going too fast, remap or not that's not going to have changed the fact you were going to fast. The remap its self is not going to have caused the accident, they may look more in depth if the cars breaks weren't working for example they might look at the abs software and system.

The only thing on the ECU the police would be interested in is the data recorded prior to the accident, as a lot of newer cars have a certain element of black box recording capabilities.


Yes you should absolutely tell your insurance company if you have changed anything from standard on your car, what you've posted above is nonsense and scaremongering.

It's a bit different if someone has told their insurance company they are not using their car to get to work, then they are caught leaving work in that car, that doesn't require a great deal of investigative work.
 
Here in NSW, Australia, I can say with 100% certainty that police would not check Ecu for remaps.
If someone is driving a race car which is not roadworthy on a public road, then they would take action.

Even in major collisions, only factors that contributed or one of the parties claim was a reason for accident would be investigated (eg. a party claims brakes failed, so that would be investigated).

If someone remapped a 1.2 ltr engine to have different torque output lower in rev range would be of no concern.

Now if someone put 4 turbos on an engine, had no appropriate brakes and went on to lose control and.mow down 10 pedestrians, that would be different.
 
p6baseunit said:
Why would you tell the insurance company? This a 1.2 after all, we weren't taking about adding 40bhp to an Abarth
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Your insurance is based on the details given at time of purchase of insurance. IF you modify in any way it is part of the agreement that you notify them. It may not cause any rise in premiums, but if you have modified and are in an accident, then any non disclosed mods will be their get out clause. :)
 
jrkitching said:
So what exactly are you trying to say? That it's OK for someone to break the law if they don't think they'll get caught??

:confused:
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So what are you trying to say? Making up a load of nonsense to scare someone into doing something is ok ?

As I stated above if you have a car remapped you should definitely tell your insurance company, but.... getting a remap on an otherwise standard car is usually going to only get a few extra BHP, certainly not enough to make a huge difference to the dynamics of the car, where as fitting a huge turbo as mentioned, for example may make a very big difference to the performance and therefore the likelihood to have an accident. The other reason to tell the insurance company is so they know what they are paying out for if there is an accident. So if they think your car has bog standard steel wheels and you've fitted 18" alloys, guess what they won't be replacing if you have an accident and haven't told them.
An ECU remap is not something tangible that you can loose in and accident, either the car is a write off in which case you go buy a new car anyway, or the car is fixed in which case you've not lost the remap.

For all your claims above you might as well say that if you don't report your remap to your insurance company, then evil flying monkeys will come and carry your car off to hell where you will never get it back and be left with a hefty hell storage bill to pay, which does happen (insert anecdote about this happening to someone I knew once, here)

Seriously though you can only give the information and let grown adults make there own decisions, making up a load guff that isn't going to happen and is not believable will only damage the reputation of the forum and credibility of any future information given.

Basically this is a 'boy who cried wolf' situation, so when you do really need to warn someone about a potential problem or concern, they're not going to take it seriously.
 
A specialist forensic scientist costs money, you think this is going to happen with an insurance company not wanting to pay out on a Fiat 1.2?
Anyhow it is no longer a concern as both my 500s have now been exported.
 
p6baseunit said:
Why would you tell the insurance company? This a 1.2 after all, we weren't taking about adding 40bhp to an Abarth
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Why? Because it's a condition of your insurance that you tell them of any change that may affect the policy. At least is it on every policy I've ever seen.
Any modification could in theory lead to cancellation of insurance. Any engine remap does need to be reported. Some insurers will refuse any modifications. And don't think they won't notice. It is becoming more and more common for insurers to access the vehicles electronic systems following an accident as they can record useful information. A check of the ECU checksum will tell if it has been re-mapped. Receipts left with car documents are a give away too. And in your case they don't have to bother as you have recorded the modification on a public forum. Insurers look at social media too.
While the insurer has to pay out any 3rd party claim, they may not pay for your car or even sue you to recover the 3rd party costs.


Robert G8RPI.
 
A specialist forensic scientist costs money, you think this is going to happen with an insurance company not wanting to pay out on a Fiat 1.2?
Anyhow it is no longer a concern as both my 500s have now been exported.
 
AndyRKett said:
<SNIP>

I know a chap who will remap any car by plugging in and going in and directly editing the parameters of the engine, there is no flash software update meaning the rest of the code remains largely untouched and you would really need to know exactly what you were looking at to know anything had been changed.

<SNIP>
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Absolute nonsense, a remap by definition changes the fuelling (and other) maps of the car. These are stored in EEPROM ("flash memory") on any production ECU that can be changed by plugging in. Any changes are easy to spot by using the checksum of the memory. Nothing special required. I don't know of any police force that does this but that does not mean they can't. I'm aware of some of the things they can do with phones and computers so don't bet on them not.
see;
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352146517300376
http://evidencesolutions.com/web/in...box-ecm-ecu-edr-ddec-download-analysis-2.html
https://synercontechnologies.com/sss2/


Robert G8RPI.
 
The only interest police would have when stopping motorists is checking if car is roadworthy and if the driver's licence corresponds to the vehicle they are driving (here in Aus P platers can't drive V8s and turbo performance vehicles.

No way they would be checking ECUs for 10 extra horsepowers.
 
g8rpi said:
Absolute nonsense, a remap by definition changes the fuelling (and other) maps of the car. These are stored in EEPROM ("flash memory") on any production ECU that can be changed by plugging in. Any changes are easy to spot by using the checksum of the memory. Nothing special required.
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Ok so you quoted me saying 'you really need to know what you are looking at to know if an ECU had been remapped'

Then you posted a link to an article abstract that states that forensic examination of ECU devices is inherently complicated to find faults where fault codes may not indicate a problem, and links to expensive specialist equipment for doing these investigations.... and your said

"Nothing special required."

Also the engine and ECU constantly changes its own parameters depending on conditions and how the vehicle is driven which means a quick scan and comparison against the original map is always going to show some disparity no matter what, so again you need the specialist to know if these changes are normal or imposed. This is why this is not a straight forward test, why it requires specialists and specialist equipment and why the police and MOT inspectors do not test for this.

Insurance companies don't routinely even inspect cars after an accident, they have it recovered to a compound, moved to a body shop or assessed by an independent inspector for the costs of repair and then decide if they are going to scrap it or repair it. In most cases an employee of the insurance company will never see anymore of the car than a few emailed photographs.

A forensic examination is likely to only be conducted in the event of a serious accident, to rule out any mechanical problems with the vehicle before pursuing a prosecution or to report the findings to the coroner.
 
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p6baseunit said:
A specialist forensic scientist costs money, you think this is going to happen with an insurance company not wanting to pay out on a Fiat 1.2?
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I doubt that they would bother. The question is whether it would happen if a family were killed in an accident and the press pack were crawling all over the story.

AndyRKett said:
...what you've posted above is nonsense and scaremongering.
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What I've posted is unlikely, and an extreme case, but it's perfectly possible. All the relevant legislation is in place and the sentencing guidelines for causing death by driving whilst uninsured couldn't be clearer. Police forces take insurance violations seriously and just because something hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it couldn't in the future.

PZ500 said:
The only interest police would have when stopping motorists is checking if car is roadworthy and if the driver's licence corresponds to the vehicle they are driving (here in Aus P platers can't drive V8s and turbo performance vehicles.
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In the UK, the police routinely conduct spot checks specifically to verify that vehicles are correctly insured. Any they find that aren't are towed away there and then, leaving the occupants to find their own way home.

AndyRKett said:
Yes you should absolutely tell your insurance company if you have changed anything from standard on your car.
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Couldn't agree more.

Perhaps we should leave this debate on something we both agree on.
 
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jrkitching said:
In the UK, the police routinely conduct spot checks specifically to verify that vehicles are correctly insured. Any they find that aren't are towed away there and then, leaving the occupants to find their own way home.
.
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Interesting, in NSW every car has to have its registration and green slip paid. Green slip is insurance for injuries, death and large scale damage. There are no car technical requirements when it comes to green slip insurance, you just have to pay it.


Third party and comprehensive car insurance are optional and you only have to disclose modifications for comprehensive car insurance.
 
PZ500 said:
Interesting, in NSW every car has to have its registration and green slip paid. Green slip is insurance for injuries, death and large scale damage. There are no car technical requirements when it comes to green slip insurance, you just have to pay it.

Third party and comprehensive car insurance are optional and you only have to disclose modifications for comprehensive car insurance.
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I believe something similar is in place in Canada.

In the UK we have a central database to enable interested parties to quickly verify that a vehicle is insured, but police will sometimes stop vehicles which are recorded on the database as being insured specifically to look for anything which might invalidate that insurance. If they find anything, you're going to be towed. Police doing such spot checks know all the tricks and can be surprisingly thorough.

As they used to say in the Old West, you need to know the house rules before you sit down and deal the cards.
 
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AndyRKett said:
Ok so you quoted me saying 'you really need to know what you are looking at to know if an ECU had been remapped'

Then you posted a link to an article abstract that states that forensic examination of ECU devices is inherently complicated to find faults where fault codes may not indicate a problem, and links to expensive specialist equipment for doing these investigations.... and your said

"Nothing special required."
To read the checksum

Also the engine and ECU constantly changes its own parameters depending on conditions and how the vehicle is driven which means a quick scan and comparison against the original map
You appear to be refering to "learnt" parameters. These are not part of the map and changing them is not a remap (the ECU will just change them back).
is always going to show some disparity no matter what, so again you need the specialist to know if these changes are normal or imposed.
Changing parameters will not affect the checksum of the map or program areas of memory. This is why this is not a straight forward test, why it requires specialists and specialist equipment
So your mate who does "undetectable remaps" is a specialist and knows more and has more equipment than the police or insurance investigators?
and why the police and MOT inspectors do not test for this.

Insurance companies don't routinely even inspect cars after an accident, they have it recovered to a compound, moved to a body shop or assessed by an independent inspector
Acting as the insurance companies agent, so you have just contradicted your "Insurance companies don't routinely even inspect cars" statment. They may not check after a minor knock but if injury or death is involved you would be suprsed how far they will go. A quik check of an ECU costs nothing compared to putting surveilence on a suspect and they do that all the time.
for the costs of repair and then decide if they are going to scrap it or repair it. In most cases an employee of the insurance company will never see anymore of the car than a few emailed photographs.

A forensic examination is likely to only be conducted in the event of a serious accident, to rule out any mechanical problems with the vehicle before pursuing a prosecution or to report the findings to the coroner.
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No, for police maybe, but an insurance company will pay for a investigation if it gets them out of a large claim. ECU checks are a quick plug in job and for popular cars it's easy to see if something has been changed.

Robert G8RPI.
 
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jrkitching said:
In the UK we have a central database to enable interested parties to quickly verify that a vehicle is insured, but police will sometimes stop vehicles which are recorded on the database as being insured specifically to look for anything which might invalidate that insurance. If they find anything, you're going to be towed. Police doing such spot checks know all the tricks and can be surprisingly thorough.
Click to expand...



Just to set the record straight, the police cannot just stop you because they feel like it. There has to be probable cause.

As previously stated, they do not have the ability to check and engine's map, and if they did they don't have the specialist skills needed to analyse it.
 
g8rpi said:
No, for police maybe, but an insurance company will pay for a investigation if it gets them out of a large claim. ECU checks are a quick plug in job and for popular cars it's easy to see if something has been changed.

Robert G8RPI.
Click to expand...



My 'mate' who isn't a mate he is a highly sought after professional, he does remaps on all sorts including very high end supercars, does work for my brothers business remapping vans for his customers, taking 88bhp vans up to 150bhp+ doing nothing more than remaping them, and that's tested on a rolling road afterwards (I'm sure you'll claim this is rubbish but it's actually very common with VW T5 vans) he is self employed doing this and is very very good at it.

Now in talking about if an insurance companies. Insurance companies employ outside contractors to go and assess a car after an accident, they are not the insurance company and they report their findings to the insurance company, they are their 'agents' as you point out but they are not employees. The most complicated piece of equipment they carry is a tape measure and a mechanical pencil they will certainly not be looking at the ECU map and nor would that form any part of their assessment. In some cases people engage a claims management company and the actual insurance company don't have anything to do with the claims assessment or repairs, they just get lumbered with the bill at he end.

These independent assessors would however comment on alloy wheels, lowing springs or other visible mechanical modifications that may be related to the accident or are just present to make the insurance company aware.

If there was a massive accident and the car was otherwise standard, the insurance company is not going to pay a forensic specialist to analyse the ECU without a really good reason to believe it has been remapped.

If the car has lots of modifications which are not declared then there's no reason to go to the extent of looking at the ECU.

If there is a fatality then they go over the car with a fine tooth comb and will look at everything, findings will be reported to the coroner for their consideration and to report st inquest.

As usual people are arguing to the extreme to try and make a point when they have little understanding of what actually goes on.
 
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