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Old 23-11-2017   #391
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Guess what guys!

My car left me on the side of the road again! I thought it was low power so I changed the battery but that did not fix problems completely. Oddly enough there is no leak of the gearbox and when it works fine it works, but it seems the clutch is slipping.

So it broke down as in it is stuck in Neutral and refuses to engage in any gears so left it to Fiat and they said that it needs a new clutch and quoted me 500 EUR for it. I find that ridiculously expensive ( i changed the last clutch aftermarket at 200 EUR) but with the dualogic i want fiat to fix it as everyone else seems to mess it up.

It has been about 70,000 kms on this clutch. (i think dualogic boxes uses clutches more aggressively especially with start stop city driving and hills).

I spoke with Fiat HQ and they are aware of how much money i spent on this stupid car so they told me to call them back once the diagnosis came from the Fiat main dealer.

I am hoping for a discount as I am really sick at throwing money in this car.
Unfortunately in GR financing cars is impossible and i am not able to spend 20,000 EUR cash for a decent new car (forget used they are all crashed and broken up on the awful roads here).

So I hope Fiat help me out tomorrow and give me a discount.
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Last edited by ahmett; 23-11-2017 at 16:35.
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Old 25-11-2017   #392
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Well quite an adventure in the end!

The car was left in the Fiat dealer. They wanted 500 EUR for a new clutch and cannot look at the car before Wednesday. I urgently needed my car, and was very upset that I am being charged so much for a clutch + waiting so long! No courtesy cars available until December 15 either. = (
I was still waiting for Fiat to call me back about whether I would get any discount so finally I decided to take matters into my own hands and try and deal with the car myself.

I went to the Fiat main dealer and asked to take the car away and drive it until Fiat can reply to me and until my appointment on Wednesday. They said no, as the car refuses to engage in gear. I said let's try to move it, so we went to the garage and I reset the battery 3-4 times until the dualogic box managed to engage in gear. Finally it managed to get into 1st gear so managed to drive it off.

The Fiat tech had told me that the clutch pressure plate was ruined and it may break down at any time. So i drove the car slowly, changing gears manual mode until finally it refused to change gear from 2nd. So i drove about 10 miles stuck in 2nd year on the motorway, until I reached the independent garage where I usually do business with (Bosch Car Service) and told them to replace the clutch.

They managed to replace the clutch and use their diagnostics to relearn the clutch and finally the car seems to be as new with the dualogic box working perfectly!

I will now be careful, as this means the clutch only lasted 60,000 kms. So i am driving it slow until the clutch wears in and will try to drive more carefully.

The Bosch Dealer charged me 260 EUR to change the clutch and replace the transmission fluid, I saw the Dualogic system and it looked in perfect order, the oil level was normal and no leaks.

I am attaching a picture of the old Valeo clutch, which looks pretty messed up to be honest, the pressure plate is missing pieces! The other part of the clutch looks just fine (don't know what it's called).
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Old 25-11-2017   #393
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Quote Originally Posted by ahmett View Post
Well quite an adventure in the end!

The car was left in the Fiat dealer. They wanted 500 EUR for a new clutch and cannot look at the car before Wednesday. I urgently needed my car, and was very upset that I am being charged so much for a clutch + waiting so long! No courtesy cars available until December 15 either. = (
I was still waiting for Fiat to call me back about whether I would get any discount so finally I decided to take matters into my own hands and try and deal with the car myself.

I went to the Fiat main dealer and asked to take the car away and drive it until Fiat can reply to me and until my appointment on Wednesday. They said no, as the car refuses to engage in gear. I said let's try to move it, so we went to the garage and I reset the battery 3-4 times until the dualogic box managed to engage in gear. Finally it managed to get into 1st gear so managed to drive it off.

The Fiat tech had told me that the clutch pressure plate was ruined and it may break down at any time. So i drove the car slowly, changing gears manual mode until finally it refused to change gear from 2nd. So i drove about 10 miles stuck in 2nd year on the motorway, until I reached the independent garage where I usually do business with (Bosch Car Service) and told them to replace the clutch.

They managed to replace the clutch and use their diagnostics to relearn the clutch and finally the car seems to be as new with the dualogic box working perfectly!

I will now be careful, as this means the clutch only lasted 60,000 kms. So i am driving it slow until the clutch wears in and will try to drive more carefully.

The Bosch Dealer charged me 260 EUR to change the clutch and replace the transmission fluid, I saw the Dualogic system and it looked in perfect order, the oil level was normal and no leaks.

I am attaching a picture of the old Valeo clutch, which looks pretty messed up to be honest, the pressure plate is missing pieces! The other part of the clutch looks just fine (don't know what it's called).
Wow it's not often I see the pressure plate being damaged
It's usually the friction plate section
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Old 26-11-2017   #394
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Is that wear on the ends of the "fingers" or was there always a recess at the ends?
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Old 26-11-2017   #395
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by John202020 View Post
Is that wear on the ends of the "fingers" or was there always a recess at the ends?
If you look closely, 2 of the fingers have literally torn off and many of them are worn off.
No wonder it was so hard to engage gear!

The difference is night and day with the new clutch, in fact I am trying to drive it very carefully as I always want it to stay like this!
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Old 26-11-2017   #396
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by ahmett View Post
If you look closely, 2 of the fingers have literally torn off and many of them are worn off.
No wonder it was so hard to engage gear!

The difference is night and day with the new clutch, in fact I am trying to drive it very carefully as I always want it to stay like this!
I wonder if there was another issue that's caused the excessive wear, I thought the release bearing should have pressed there so little to no wear?
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Old 26-11-2017   #397
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by John202020 View Post
I wonder if there was another issue that's caused the excessive wear, I thought the release bearing should have pressed there so little to no wear?
Given that when the dualogic box is malfunctioning, gear and clutch selection can be very erratic and forceful, I wouldn't be surprised that the damage was done during this time.

Here's to hoping for a new start!
I even read the dualogic manual to know how to use it properly, I think the main damage occurs from start up when parking on hills and changing gears while not full stationary so I use my left foot to keep the car still while doing so.

Funnily enough it says to park the car in gear, but then before physically starting the engine to put it in N and then start the engine.
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Old 07-12-2017   #398
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Thought I would give a little update on the dualogic/selespeed thread, Iíve now bought a Grande Punto dualogic with gearbox issues, Iím going to run the car for 6 months or so and work out exactly what causes all of the different problems they suffer with. Iíve got several used dualogic actuators to play with and will put the hours in and hopefully come up with fixes for any of the problems they suffer. Too many good cars go to scrap for this problem. Now Iím not tied to a dealer Iím sure I will have fixes soon.
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Old 19-12-2017   #399
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The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Hi, I'm new to the site and am looking for some advice. My wife has a 500C with dualogic gearbox. We have had the car from new and it has done 50k miles - the car now has a gearbox problem, It showed gearbox temp warning light then lost all drive. Regained drive after restarting car but only going forward in about 3rd gear, starting and staying in that gear but the strangest thing was with the gearlever in the reverse poition. There was a slight burn smell but the car got me about 2 miles to our local Fiat dealer with a bleeper sounding most of the time and without it changing gear. Dealership suggests replacement accuator and clutch - any ideas and advice would be much appriecated. Thank you.
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Old 19-12-2017   #400
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Re: 500c 2012 50k miles dualogic gearbox problem

Quote Originally Posted by jagman1 View Post
Hi, I'm new to the site
Hello and welcome .

Quote Originally Posted by jagman1 View Post
and am looking for some advice.
That's what we're here for.

Quote Originally Posted by jagman1 View Post
We have had the car from new and it has done 50k miles - the car now has a gearbox problem
Sorry you're joining us with a problem - condolences.

Sadly dualogic failure at this sort of mileage, whilst not exactly common, is by no means unusual - that's why this thread is now over 400 posts long.

Quote Originally Posted by jagman1 View Post
Dealership suggests replacement actuator and clutch
From what you've posted, that's probably going to be the only thing that will give you a long term fix that you can rely on. I'm guessing a main dealer is going to charge somewhere in the region of £1500 for that, fitted. An independent fiat specialist will be cheaper, but I'd not recommend taking it to a garage without specific experience of working with these gearboxes. If you've had it from new and have a full main dealer service history, it's worth approaching Fiat to see if they will make a goodwill contribution to the repair cost, but don't expect miracles.

Some folks have fixed this temporarily by changing and/or topping up the fluid in the actuator and resetting the warning messages. This may give the illusion that all is well but the problems generally come back within a short time. Often folks do this and then quickly sell the car or trade it in. This obviously doesn't apply in your case as you've had the car from new, but buyers of secondhand dualogics need to be aware the previous owner may have done exactly that.

Ethical considerations aside, what you do now probably depends on how long you plan on keeping the car.

@ahmett has a long-running love/hate relationship with a 500 dualogic and may be along shortly to contribute to the discussion.

If you're anywhere near south Hampshire, @burrowsdeano runs an independent garage and has more knowledge than most about these gearboxes. He's recently bought a donor car with dualogic issues to experiment with so that he can develop more cost-effective alternatives to replacement of the complete actuator (it's not a cheap part).
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Last edited by jrkitching; 20-12-2017 at 00:32.
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Old 20-12-2017   #401
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by jagman1 View Post
Hi, I'm new to the site and am looking for some advice. My wife has a 500C with dualogic gearbox. We have had the car from new and it has done 50k miles - the car now has a gearbox problem, It showed gearbox temp warning light then lost all drive. Regained drive after restarting car but only going forward in about 3rd gear, starting and staying in that gear but the strangest thing was with the gearlever in the reverse poition. There was a slight burn smell but the car got me about 2 miles to our local Fiat dealer with a bleeper sounding most of the time and without it changing gear. Dealership suggests replacement accuator and clutch - any ideas and advice would be much appriecated. Thank you.
Hi, is the actuator leaking? If it is not and looks fine, it could just be the clutch.

This is what happened to me the last time. If the actuator is leaking fluid then you are in trouble and as JrKitching said, you'd best replace the whole unit for around 1200 GBP.
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Old 20-12-2017   #402
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by burrowsdeano View Post
Thought I would give a little update on the dualogic/selespeed thread, Iíve now bought a Grande Punto dualogic with gearbox issues, Iím going to run the car for 6 months or so and work out exactly what causes all of the different problems they suffer with. Iíve got several used dualogic actuators to play with and will put the hours in and hopefully come up with fixes for any of the problems they suffer. Too many good cars go to scrap for this problem. Now Iím not tied to a dealer Iím sure I will have fixes soon.
Keep up the good work deano! If I bring my Fiat 500 to the UK and have Dualogic Issues, I will come and use you!
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Old 20-12-2017   #403
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by ahmett View Post
Hi, is the actuator leaking? If it is not and looks fine, it could just be the clutch.
You beat me to it... had a friend with same symptoms - no leaks, pump OK, but burning smell and only 1 gear.

Garage quoted 1300+ for new actuator.

Was knackered clutch. Helped him with the calibration once he had changed it. Been fine ever since.
@burrowsdeano - I really like your plan... hope you come up with some fixes. There's been quite a few Dualogics getting scrapped through rubbish diagnosis and scary quotes from garages. Seems a shame to me that such a basically simple piece of engineering scares garages so much.
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Old 22-12-2017   #404
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by irc View Post
You beat me to it... had a friend with same symptoms - no leaks, pump OK, but burning smell and only 1 gear.

Garage quoted 1300+ for new actuator.

Was knackered clutch. Helped him with the calibration once he had changed it. Been fine ever since.
@burrowsdeano - I really like your plan... hope you come up with some fixes. There's been quite a few Dualogics getting scrapped through rubbish diagnosis and scary quotes from garages. Seems a shame to me that such a basically simple piece of engineering scares garages so much.
Excellent news, saved them a lot of money. It's really as simple as looking below the car, if you see no leaks from the Dualogic Unit and hear the pump priming when you start the car then you can be quite sure that the unit itself is fine.

People need to be aware that when the clutch wears out, the gears do not change so easily from R,N and 1 and it gets progressively worse until you can't it get out of neutral at all, which is what happened to me!
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Old 22-12-2017   #405
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by ahmett View Post
People need to be aware that when the clutch wears out, the gears do not change so easily from R,N and 1 and it gets progressively worse until you can't it get out of neutral at all...
Yep. From what I've seen, I reckon either knackered clutch or tired pump motor are probably the cause of most of the "non-leaking" problems. Both easy fixes too (although clutch calibration procedure freaked me out the first time!)

Tired pump motor seems to usually coincide with knackered accumulator (makes sense, as pump has to work harder) so probably a good idea to change both at the same time.

There's also the possibility of a properly knackered gearbox... only seen one so far, I think the box had a leaking driveshaft seal, ran low on oil, and eventually the actuator could not change gear. Certainly there wasn't much oil left in it.
Original actuator was fine once fitted to a recon gearbox.

Leaks are more of a pain, but still usually fixable. But... I have a theory that some of them are caused by knackered clutch not being fixed soon enough. Extra strain on actuator seals?

(Edited to add...) Oh yeah, forgot to mention random electrical faults, which seem to be pretty common too on Pandas and 500s.
So far, the ones I've seen or been told about are battery, tailgate wiring or bad earth related. They seem to have similar symptoms on non-dualogic cars, except for random strange gearchanges. Fixing the underlying problem seems to cure.
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Last edited by irc; 22-12-2017 at 14:19.
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