wigit said:

may be plenty of headroom in block but want about to other bits

i'd go for clutch slip on a mapped TA, if you map alway factor this cost in to the equation, i broke this news to mrs w on her mapped car as i demonstrated it on the m25 to her

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Good point you make here.

wigit said:

i'd go for clutch slip on a mapped TA, if you map alway factor this cost in to the equation, i broke this news to mrs w on her mapped car as i demonstrated it on the m25 to her

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The clutch does feel marginal in the TA, my goal is to save 100kg from UFI to help compensate. On the other hand, it's not like the TA will let you do a clutch dump anyway. Is the clutch common to any other models?

UFI said:

The clutch does feel marginal in the TA, my goal is to save 100kg from UFI to help compensate. On the other hand, it's not like the TA will let you do a clutch dump anyway. Is the clutch common to any other models?

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I'll try and find out this evening with reference to ePER. You're right though, it does feel noticably more 'stressed' when in normal mode rather than ECO.

Common only to the 500 TA and the Ypsilon TA.

Interestingly there's a new part from 24/10/2011 (after my car was produced - mine was made on 6/6/2011) with the following modification info: "15572 - introduzione nuovo kit frizione (DAT 24/10/2011)"

Now I don't know Italian, but frizione translates to 'clutch', so that sounds rather like 'introduction of new clutch kit'.

bgunn said:

Common only to the 500 TA and the Ypsilon TA.

Interestingly there's a new part from 24/10/2011 (after my car was produced - mine was made on 6/6/2011) with the following modification info: "15572 - introduzione nuovo kit frizione (DAT 24/10/2011)"

Now I don't know Italian, but frizione translates to 'clutch', so that sounds rather like 'introduction of new clutch kit'.

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haha convince fiat to change yours to this one. tell them your clutch feels marginal!

ahmett said:

haha convince fiat to change yours to this one. tell them your clutch feels marginal!

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They'll likely just say it's fair wear & tear .

ahmett said:

haha convince fiat to change yours to this one. tell them your clutch feels marginal!

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Lol, I don't want FIAT near my car. If the clutch suffers, I'll be changing it myself. IF I ever tune my engine and the clutch slips, I'll do the investigations myself into a larger clutch plate with higher clamping pressure to prevent slip (and redrilling fixings for that on the flywheel).

And then the gearbox will probably break

bgunn said:

Lol, I don't want FIAT near my car. If the clutch suffers, I'll be changing it myself. IF I ever tune my engine and the clutch slips, I'll do the investigations myself into a larger clutch plate with higher clamping pressure to prevent slip (and redrilling fixings for that on the flywheel).

And then the gearbox will probably break

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Then you will join the distinguished Fiat 500 broken gearbox club of which I am the honorary chairman!

ahmett said:

Then you will join the distinguished Fiat 500 broken gearbox club of which I am the honorary chairman!

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Ahh, but you're just taking out the selector mechanism. I'm proposing a proper breaking of the gearbox

If anyone is contemplating increasing the bhp of their TA one way to save the clutch / gearbox is to have less grippy tyres.
On the A500 when it gets the esseesse treatment the standard 17 Pirellis get changed to the more grippy Pilots to cope with the extra power. This can put a strain on the gearbox.
So 'downsizing' to a F500 the 15s might be a better choice than the wider footprint of the 16s.
Also having ESP fitted with the ASR might be benefical.
Call be a sceptic but I wouldn't have that much faith it overstretching the C514 gearbox. Putting in a stronger clutch could result in bigger bills.

loveshandbags said:

Call be a sceptic but I wouldn't have that much faith it overstretching the C514 gearbox. Putting in a stronger clutch could result in bigger bills.

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You're a sceptic

Seriously - it'll be fine, as long as you don't drive it 10/10ths all of the time. OEM testing regimes are very brutal (to account for the most mechanically un-sympathetic customer you could ever imagine), so in reality, the strength margin is quite high.. There are plenty of other manufacturers that have models with 'weak' gearboxes, and there's always upgrades that can be made. Also, you 'upgrade' the maintenance - so change the gear oil every year - for example - when as supplied, the manufacturer suggests the gearbox is 'sealed for life'.

bgunn said:

You're a sceptic

Seriously - it'll be fine, as long as you don't drive it 10/10ths all of the time. OEM testing regimes are very brutal (to account for the most mechanically un-sympathetic customer you could ever imagine), so in reality, the strength margin is quite high.. There are plenty of other manufacturers that have models with 'weak' gearboxes, and there's always upgrades that can be made. Also, you 'upgrade' the maintenance - so change the gear oil every year - for example - when as supplied, the manufacturer suggests the gearbox is 'sealed for life'.

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With the duallogic they ask you to check it every 30,000 km.

ahmett said:

With the duallogic they ask you to check it every 30,000 km.

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That's the hydraulic system though, not the gearbox itself..

bgunn said:

..: "15572 - introduzione nuovo kit frizione (DAT 24/10/2011)"

Now I don't know Italian, but frizione translates to 'clutch', so that sounds rather like 'introduction of new clutch kit'.

Click to expand...

Bravo.

bgunn said:

You're a sceptic

Seriously - it'll be fine, as long as you don't drive it 10/10ths all of the time. OEM testing regimes are very brutal (to account for the most mechanically un-sympathetic customer you could ever imagine), so in reality, the strength margin is quite high.. There are plenty of other manufacturers that have models with 'weak' gearboxes, and there's always upgrades that can be made. Also, you 'upgrade' the maintenance - so change the gear oil every year - for example - when as supplied, the manufacturer suggests the gearbox is 'sealed for life'.

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From the figures you gave earlier there was no increase in torque with the higher bhp of the 103bhp model. But if a tuning box considered by 'The Twins' is used, judging by the figures produced for the A500 the torque increase would be significant and could well be past the tolerance level of the quoted figure for the C514 at 150Nm.

There is a C514R gearbox in the MJ II which is rated at 190Nm but I got the impression that the TA just has the standard C514. The A500 gearbox the C510 came from Alfa and was built to a higher tolerance than the published 206Nm. The C514 in 6 speed form and has a number of reported failures on the AF. The M32 6 speed gearbox with which is supposedly rated at 320Nm is a different matter and a tuning box makes a dogs dinner of its life expectancy.

Lastly, the next driver of the car might just drive at 10/10ths and that could result in failures creating bad press. Changing the oil in the gearbox is a good suggestion and it's a pity it's not in the service schedule for the A500SS.

Is the clutch in the diesel 1.3 75bhp (max. torque 145Nm) or the diesel 95bhp (max. torque 200Nm) different from the 1.2 petrol (max. torque 102Nm)? Because I know a guy with a 1.3 75bhp and a tuning box who had to have his clutch replaced at 50.000 miles (can’t vouch for his driving style.)

Mondaugen said:

Is the clutch in the diesel 1.3 75bhp (max. torque 145Nm) or the diesel 95bhp (max. torque 200Nm) different from the 1.2 petrol (max. torque 102Nm)? Because I know a guy with a 1.3 75bhp and a tuning box who had to have his clutch replaced at 50.000 miles (can’t vouch for his driving style.)

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Good point - I'll check those two clutches too. Not got ePER in front of me right now, will update (as usual) later!

Yes, very much different, the 95hp appears to have a concentric slave cylinder, the 75hp not. And the clutch kits are different.

OK, more updates:

The higher power TA is calibrated to EU6 emissions standards.

It has a variable displacement oil pump (ECU controlled by a simple solenoid valve - needed for EU6)

The cylinder head is indeed different, it contains the exhaust manifold, so the turbo inlet is bolted directly to the head. Suspect the main reasoning for this is faster warmup by harnessing exhaust heat (like the 1.0 Ecoboost engine from Ford).

There is an ECU controlled water thermostat (that'll be needed for EU6)

The turbo is a Mitsubishi TD025 - the recirc dump valve is indeed a solenoid actuated valve directly mounted on the turbo (rather than a vac controlled one like the lower power TA. The 85hp TA has a TD02 turbo)

The gearbox on the 500L is the C514.6 (6 speed gearbox - yes, rated to 140 Nm)

Peak torque looks to be about 142Nm, and it looks to be over a wider range than the lower power TA - getting to about 4500 rpm before starting to drop, whereas it's starting to fall at 3750 in the lower power one (so that's how the higher power is generated). The drop off appears to be a lot less marked (because the turbo - and head - can flow more air).

To me, the higher power one looks to be a win-win, but it looks like it's derived from better breathing and a bigger turbo.

bgunn said:

...The turbo is a Mitsubishi TD025 - the recirc dump valve is indeed a solenoid actuated valve directly mounted on the turbo (rather than a vac controlled one like the lower power TA. The 85hp TA has a TD02 turbo)...The gearbox on the 500L is the C514.6 (6 speed gearbox - yes, rated to 140 Nm)

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Some useful information Bgunn. Change in direction for Fiat from IHI turbos and more recently the use of Garrett turbos on the MA and the APE and the GPA SS.
So with the 6 speed version of the C514 does that meant that it is not as strong as the 5 speed which is rated at 150Nm ?
Given the increase in turbo size from the current model - do you reckon that the TD02 turbo is maxed out and that a Tuning box could shorten it's life ?