Before I take the 126A1 head to the machine shop... should I be using a Panda 30 head instead? My goal is to have the most power I can squeeze out of a 126A1 base, 700+cc, without it being a "track only" build, using common petrol.

My advice would be to stick to the 126A1 head and get it 'ported' as per the tuning info I sent you. The Panda30 heads are difficult to find. I will be putting a letter into the post to you within the next couple of days regarding valve sizes and will explain all.
Tom

the hobbler said:

My advice would be to stick to the 126A1 head and get it 'ported' as per the tuning info I sent you. The Panda30 heads are difficult to find. I will be putting a letter into the post to you within the next couple of days regarding valve sizes and will explain all.
Tom

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I agree. I bought a Panda 30 head before the prices became eye-watering.
They used to be the go to purchase for bolt on performance, but now it is cheaper to port and increase the valve size of standard 126 head.

Hutbed said:

Before I take the 126A1 head to the machine shop... should I be using a Panda 30 head instead? My goal is to have the most power I can squeeze out of a 126A1 base, 700+cc, without it being a "track only" build, using common petrol.

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Hi, for what it's worth the principle reason(s) to use a Panda head are Cost and flow characteristics above 6000rpm. The Cost of a rebuilt Panda head complete from a supplier will cost you some €760 ish. If you go with a new Round head modified for twin ports with manifold you will get to €2000 and more
True, the panda head needs a different, or modified, fan housing and thermostat housing, but this is a low cost item in comparison. Also true is the fact that a Single port head can be 'worked' to breathe the same amount as a Panda.
However, the flow above 6000rpm is greater with the Panda head even with the head studs in the way !!!! The Panda intakes can be opened up considerably with the removal of a great deal of material thus negating the stud problem somewhat. My engineer commented that the work needed more time than he anticipated. If you obtain a stock head and factor in the work needed to port and polish, Skim and repair between the valves and increase the inlet valve size you will still be nowhere near the €760 ish cost from a supplier . It's all down to the numbers after all. As you are in Sicily look up any race shops for advice, or any engineers too ask around for the head availability. If you want a fast road engine be prepared to pay well for it or if money is no object just buy a complete engine
Ian.

My thoughts are that as far as I am aware the Panda 30 engine is a 650 same as the 126 with a twin port head , Weber twin choke carb and unknown camshaft but most likely a modest upgrade on the 126. Gives you 30 hp without any further tuning mods. Downside is you either have to source the right tinware or modify the head to reshape it to the same profile as the 126 which seemed to be the way to go in the "old" days. I did wonder if removing a fair amount of the head casting to suit 500/126 tinware would have taken away some of the heat dissipation but it appears to not be a problem but not sure how many guys these days will hack away to reshape a Panda 30 head like some early tuners did.
With these heads almost on the endangered species list I think that the twin port mod will be the way to go but that will always involve expensive machining, specialist parts and seem to be using a limited carb option which I do not like as not everybody wants a monster carb.

Thanks everyone! Tom- I'm not in a hurry so I'll be sure to look the docs over before deciding. Being in Sicily I could probably find a Panda 30 head relatively easy, but I am less interested now hearing about multiple modifications required. I won't "need" the engine to push over 6000 rpms, but good power until that point is important.

I don't understand the fuss about the panda-head. The one I got was not all that expensive and actually quite easy to fit but TBH, I would say is slowed me down quite a lot when compared with standard.

Now sitting in a garage is a supposedly nice engine....
Built on a brand new 126 block and crank, Panda head, modified tin wear, 5 speed box all sorts...
I do wonder about putting it in a car or simply finding the full spec and selling it...
I do understand the interest in wringing as much power as possible from an engine, perhaps just to see what can be done...

There are 800cc+ conversions, overhead cam shaft heads, EFI kits. 6 speed sequential gearboxes, LSDs allsorts...
but the sacrifice of reliability and drive-ability and let alone the cost seems pointless to me.... most sub £2k hot hatches would still out perform such a car..

I guess I must be becoming an old fuddy duddy

Bigvtwin996 said:

...but the sacrifice of reliability and drive-ability and let alone the cost seems pointless to me.... most sub £2k hot hatches would still out perform such a car..

I guess I must be becoming an old fuddy duddy

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I fully understand, and my other car here in Sicily is a 2001 SEAT Leon 20VT, which is properly quick. For me this is as much a learning and experience endeavor as well as specifically LOVING very small cars and wanting that go-kart experience. For sacrificing reliability and drive-ability, I'm going to do my best to improve on both rather than diminish it.
Side note- if anyone wonders why I always say "in Sicily," it's because I'm here temporarily. I have a home in Nevada, USA along with 5 other cars. Lol

I think that it was Jay Leno who once, very wisely, said that "you will get more fun driving a slow car quickly than you will when driving a fast car slowly". Having at one time in my life driven expensive and stupidly fast cars (Bentley, Ferrari and Maserati as well as the occasional Lamborghini, Aston martin and Porsche) as a job, I fully concur with his comment. You don't buy a 500 to go quick, but to have a 'real hoot' driving it around and chatting to all the people who want to chat to you about it. Remember, in a queue of traffic, you in your Cinquecento will travel just as quickly (or slowly, depending upon your point of view) as the man alongside you in his VERY expensive Lambo 4x4---and that is from personal experience---guess who had the bigger grin on his face?

I concur with Tom, I’m lucky to own some quick Italians. But my 500 is my obsession at the mo. Having bugger all power means I have to adopt my driving style to suit.
Love it :worship:

Rob

Again I fully understand- I had a 1984 Alfa Romeo Spider with the 2.0 DOHC which I put a light flywheel, electronic ignition, fast road suspension, a nice header and minus the rear muffler, and I lightened it by 70kg. That was the single most fun car I've ever driven with roughly 120 bhp. Wife made me sell it after I bought a 911 Carrera, I've missed it since. I'm not trying to make the car hit 100 kph in 5 seconds, but getting pushed back into the seat on throttle and the ability to get her sideways whenever my heart desires would be epic.

Also its your car. So your choice. I'm torn at times between should I upgrade the engine. But so far I've accepted the 500 for what it is. No power and slow. If I want a faster / powerful car, I use something else.

lazylobster said:

Also its your car. So your choice. I'm torn at times between should I upgrade the engine. But so far I've accepted the 500 for what it is. No power and slow. If I want a faster / powerful car, I use something else.

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That is my philosophy... Your car your choice..

I may disagree with others when a car is historically important... the Oldest RHD car in the world is being modified with leather interior and a totally modified engine, rear seats being fitted and so many other things.... I believe that t be wrong, after all adding some jellies and three Christs to the last supper would be considered sacrilege (Lets see who knows the reference!!).
I do appreciate people who extract so much power etc and set the confines to what was available when the car was built or what can't be seen..

I guess as I have said I must be becoming a fuddy duddy.... having had a race tuned 996 Ducati I appreciate speed, but one of my 28mph Ducatis gets more attention a shows than any Sports bike...
Each to their own and it would be very boring if at a show their was a line of 20+ totally original Fiat 500s

So (to me) there are two conversations developing here......One about the pro's and cons of fitting a '30' head over a standard head and one about how far do you go to obtain more power for your car...….


Firstly a few will know that I have been after one of these heads as I wanted a twin port inlet as I was going to fit a bespoke FI system to a spare engine 650cc I have with a mild cam just to see how much more responsive and smoother it made these little cars perform. It wasn't for performance, merely to give more power than the standard 500 with the added hopefully smoother delivery and pick up. I think I may totally sack this idea off now as fitting the standard rebuilt 650cc over the 500 seems to have made the massive difference I required. I have also noted on this thread that some one has mentioned that there are EFI systems already out there for these cars anyway, that I need to check out...…


Secondly the point about performance and where to stop...…..Read Mr Bleeding Knuckles thread on his engine build, that's a classic about knowing when not to (in a great way )….an everyday build (to me) does not need to meet the criteria he is achieving and I doubt these little standard lumps meet half the general specification that his will and thousands of these have been built and ran fine...….My personal experience as mentioned above that the transplant of the 650cc with a Synchro box has given that extra power and driveability to make these little cars just that little bit more fun for the user (mainly Mrs W) without breaking the bank...…Without preaching the extra power needs better brakes, suspension blah blah blah.....sometimes less is so much more.....


Now my Beetle on the other hand, that's a different story

Bigvtwin996 said:

I guess as I have said I must be becoming a fuddy duddy....
.
Each to their own and it would be very boring if at a show their was a line of 20+ totally original Fiat 500s

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"Becoming a fuddy duddy"....?

I find most shows boring but one with a line of Fiat 500s of any type and condition would be OK with me!

The urge to modify your car goes back to the very beginning of motor-car development. It is an enjoyable, challenging and satisfying topic in practise and disussion; there's plenty of evidence for that here. But sometimes it seems that the inference is being drawn that there is an automatic need to modify the Fiat 500 in order to make any headway in modern traffic; this is not true, (or so I have heard )

fiat500 said:

"Becoming a fuddy duddy"....?

I find most shows boring but one with a line of Fiat 500s of any type and condition would be OK with me!

The urge to modify your car goes back to the very beginning of motor-car development. It is an enjoyable, challenging and satisfying topic in practise and disussion; there's plenty of evidence for that here. But sometimes it seems that the inference is being drawn that there is an automatic need to modify the Fiat 500 in order to make any headway in modern traffic; this is not true, (or so I have heard )

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Talking of shows, I was at Bugjam last week for 4 days and whilst walking round looking at the cars most of my time was taken up looking at the modifications, appreciating the time and detail taken in completing some of the modifications. You can tell which ones are proper modified and which are just bolted on, it's in the detail to me! Not much interest was given to the standard cars, concourse or not....


The drag cars are on a different level

The Whitakers said:

Talking of shows, I was at Bugjam last week for 4 days and whilst walking round looking at the cars most of my time was taken up looking at the modifications, appreciating the time and detail taken in completing some of the modifications. You can tell which ones are proper modified and which are just bolted on, it's in the detail to me! Not much interest was given to the standard cars, concourse or not....


The drag cars are on a different level

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Hi, I agree it's all in the techy detail and getting it right. But, I will say all this Modding stuff is not new after all, Abarth started the craze, we just continue the process. My rocker mod came from an article in Hot Car mag dated October 1969, which is not long after my car was built !!!!!! and Yes I also agree you need to set a target for the level of Mods you will complete, otherwise the money pit gets deeper and deeper
My pursuit of exact figures during the build is born out of the need to have a thoroughly enjoyable car that I can say is built to a standard and not bought
Ian.

Great seeing all the discussion. I just wiped down my project head with some cleaner, figure I should show the condition as acquired.

Bleeding Knuckles said:

Hi, I agree it's all in the techy detail and getting it right. But, I will say all this Modding stuff is not new after all, Abarth started the craze, we just continue the process. My rocker mod came from an article in Hot Car mag dated October 1969, which is not long after my car was built !!!!!! and Yes I also agree you need to set a target for the level of Mods you will complete, otherwise the money pit gets deeper and deeper
My pursuit of exact figures during the build is born out of the need to have a thoroughly enjoyable car that I can say is built to a standard and not bought
Ian.

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Built not bought!...…..I love that saying