Technical Why Twinair never really worked

[AndyRKett]

Such a car exists, lol? [emoji6]

Yep, if you don’t spend your life looking at the world with blinkers on its amazing what you’ll see

Just because it doesent achieve the claimed mpg, and small turbos generally don’t apparently, does not mean the TA is not a good engine.

I do t think anyone is saying “it’s a crap engine” but the point of this thread is that these new small turbo engines are not really getting any better economy figures to an equivalent non turbo engine.
They go a bit faster 0-60 then their equivalents, but they add several layers of complexity and this in turn creates more potential for failures and makes them therefore less reliable. You can throw as many stories as you like about, regarding personal experiance of how reliable your own TA was, but no 1.2 500 ever suffered a turbo failure or a solenoid valve failure.

It’s interesting to note that the twinair set up is not being used on the newer engines the 1litre 3 cylinder and the 1.3litre 4 cylinder, in places like India and South America, they are using conventional valve timing set ups, this is because 1. The emissions requirements are not as strict as here in Europe, which in one of the reasons such a complicated engine has become essential here. And 2. The system is too delicate to cope with the abuse those engines would get, wrong oil used regularly, irregular serving or not being serviced at all. Dusty hostile environments with rugged terrain and in some cases no roads. The TA setup is definately not a robust, more complicated and more expensive to maintain and and repair.

It’s non opinion these are all verifiable facts.

 

[AGH1965]

fiat are claiming 50% better economy than is achieved in the real world

FIAT claims better fuel economy in the mandatory test cycle than is achieved in the real world. Despite all disclaimers you still don't get it that the mandatory test cycle has nothing to do with the real world. That other cars with other engines show smaller differences between the mandatory test cycle and the real world that doesn't make these any better. It's like a monkey that performs well when eating bananas and a cow when eating grass. Comparing their performances doesn't make sense either.

So if you want a small engined turbo, petrol car that achieves its claimed MPG figures buy a large engined turbo diesel, like a nice BMW 3-Series.

Hihihi, how long will it take you to discover that diesel engines have a very similar problem at high engine loads? The only difference is that in case of small turbocharged petrol engines it is about CO2 and fuel economy and in case of the diesel engines it is about a toxic gas called NOx. In my opinion diesel cars should be banned.

Alternatively looking above other people have posted very good results from other car brands, people who have ditched their TA engined fiat 500s and you’ve even clicked like on their posts.

You suggest all of these people got rid of their TA because of fuel economy, but that is not the case. For example forum member rallycinq is far from disappointed about the fuel economy of the TA.

 

[306maxi]

Such a car exists, lol? [emoji6]

It’s hilarious that someone who owns a Punto thinks that a BMW isn’t ‘nice’ lol.

Fiat have stopped selling the Punto due to lack of demand and BMW are still making the 3 series. Make of that what you will.

 

[puntofan01]

Yep, if you don’t spend your life looking at the world with blinkers on its amazing what you’ll see



I do t think anyone is saying “it’s a crap engine” but the point of this thread is that these new small turbo engines are not really getting any better economy figures to an equivalent non turbo engine.
They go a bit faster 0-60 then their equivalents, but they add several layers of complexity and this in turn creates more potential for failures and makes them therefore less reliable. You can throw as many stories as you like about, regarding personal experiance of how reliable your own TA was, but no 1.2 500 ever suffered a turbo failure or a solenoid valve failure.

It’s interesting to note that the twinair set up is not being used on the newer engines the 1litre 3 cylinder and the 1.3litre 4 cylinder, in places like India and South America, they are using conventional valve timing set ups, this is because 1. The emissions requirements are not as strict as here in Europe, which in one of the reasons such a complicated engine has become essential here. And 2. The system is too delicate to cope with the abuse those engines would get, wrong oil used regularly, irregular serving or not being serviced at all. Dusty hostile environments with rugged terrain and in some cases no roads. The TA setup is definately not a robust, more complicated and more expensive to maintain and and repair.

It’s non opinion these are all verifiable facts.

There is a few nice cars out there, they're just not made by bmw, lol!

It’s hilarious that someone who owns a Punto thinks that a BMW isn’t ‘nice’ lol.

Fiat have stopped selling the Punto due to lack of demand and BMW are still making the 3 series. Make of that what you will.

There's a lot of bland people out there, hence the a4 and 3 series sell...

 

[306maxi]

There is a few nice cars out there, they're just not made by bmw, lol! There's a lot of bland people out there, hence the a4 and 3 series sell...

And you’ve driven these cars to actually have an educated opinion on them?

 

[puntofan01]

I've never driven 1, and quite frankly, I don't find meself wanting a go in 1 either. If I like a cars' design, then I'll want a go in 1 to see what it's like to drive.

 

[306maxi]

I've never driven 1, and quite frankly, I don't find meself wanting a go in 1 either. If I like a cars' design, then I'll want a go in 1 to see what it's like to drive.

Translation: I’ve got no idea what I’m talking about.

If you think that driving something RWD and with 50:50 weight distribution is boring then you’ve clearly taken leave of your senses.

Enjoy your nicely styled Vauxhall.

 

[AndyRKett]

Translation: I’ve got no idea what I’m talking about.

I am firmly of the belief that someone can’t consider themselves to be a car person and not want to drive any/every car they can get their hands on.

Every car drives differently, there are plenty of ugly cars about which are no terrible cars, there are plenty of very pretty cars that are absolute dogs (ask any Ferrari owner)

I can’t understand anyone who has no experiance of anything and are happy with what they have.
If people did that with every aspect of life we’d all still be living in caves and hunting for food with sharpened sticks.

 

[AGH1965]

The system is too delicate to cope with the abuse those engines would get, wrong oil used regularly, irregular serving or not being serviced at all. Dusty hostile environments with rugged terrain and in some cases no roads. The TA setup is definately not a robust, more complicated and more expensive to maintain and and repair.

Do I care that a car breaks down when you not treat it well? Not at all! It is what the owner deserves!

 

[lsgraham_uk]

Translation: I’ve got no idea what I’m talking about.

If you think that driving something RWD and with 50:50 weight distribution is boring then you’ve clearly taken leave of your senses.

Enjoy your nicely styled Vauxhall.

Well I drove a 116d and it was horrible. Can't stand the hinged accelerator, the sills were massive and it seemed to weigh far more than it should.

 

[AGH1965]

Fiat have stopped selling the Punto due to lack of demand and BMW are still making the 3 series. Make of that what you will.

FIAT may have stopped selling the Punto in the UK, but not in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Austria, Netherlands, .... Make of that what you will.

 

[306maxi]

I am firmly of the belief that someone can’t consider themselves to be a car person and not want to drive any/every car they can get their hands on.

Every car drives differently, there are plenty of ugly cars about which are no terrible cars, there are plenty of very pretty cars that are absolute dogs (ask any Ferrari owner)

I can’t understand anyone who has no experiance of anything and are happy with what they have.
If people did that with every aspect of life we’d all still be living in caves and hunting for food with sharpened sticks.

Tend to agree. Even cars we don’t like have features that are great there are things to learn.

 

[306maxi]

FIAT may have stopped selling the Punto in the UK, but not in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Austria, Netherlands, .... Make of that what you will.

The Punto has been killed off. It’s dead.

https://www.motor1.com/news/261714/fiat-punto-discontinued/

 

[lsgraham_uk]

The Punto has been killed off. It’s dead.

https://www.motor1.com/news/261714/fiat-punto-discontinued/

As is the rs3 for the moment.



https://www.carscoops.com/2018/08/a...s3-sportback-sedan-issues-stop-sale-due-wltp/

 

[306maxi]

As is the rs3 for the moment.



https://www.carscoops.com/2018/08/a...s3-sportback-sedan-issues-stop-sale-due-wltp/

Due to WLTP. It’ll be back, or back when the next model launches.

The Punto is dead.

 

[AndyRKett]

As is the rs3 for the moment.



https://www.carscoops.com/2018/08/a...s3-sportback-sedan-issues-stop-sale-due-wltp/

as you say, "for the moment"

"Audi has been forced to temporarily pull the plug on the RS3 Sportback and RS3 Sedan, due to the implementation of the new Worldwide Harmonized Light Vehicles Test Procedure"

That's a very different thing to

"The Fiat Punto has been taken out of production after 13 years on sale, a quiet end to one of the Italian carmaker’s most long-standing models.


It is believed that the supermini won’t be replaced and that the company plans to use the production space that the Punto frees up at its Melfi plant in Italy to build a second Maserati SUV"

The punto is dead.

The Uk is the only right-hand drive market for the punto, there will not be huge stocks of right-hand drive cars knocking about, however there will be massive amounts of left-hand drive puntos, built but unsold (by comparison to the RHD models) that fiat will still need to shift, so its not unreasonable they will carry on selling the LHD cars in the rest of Europe for the time being, they have reduced the car to 2 basic trim levels 2 engine options and very few extras, If you want to order a brand new punto to your own specs anywhere in Europe, chances are they can pull one out of their back pocket or from the back of the sofa to whatever spec you want, without having to raise a single spanner

 

[puntofan01]

The only reason the Punto is dead is because the numpties in charge neglected it. If it had been replaced a few years ago, it would be selling well today.

 

[puntofan01]

I can’t understand anyone who has no experiance of anything and are happy with what they have.
If people did that with every aspect of life we’d all still be living in caves and hunting for food with sharpened sticks.

We will have to agree to disagree on that 1. Personally, I say if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I also say simple pleasures, life's treasures. Perhaps if more people learnt to be content, there'd be a lot less debt, and people would be far happier in life!!!

 

[AndyRKett]

The only reason the Punto is dead is because the numpties in charge neglected it. If it had been replaced a few years ago, it would be selling well today.

Having had a look at a few trade articles, the reasons for neglecting the punto where fairly obvious.

Ironically the very topic of this thread was one of them, the larger car and older engines where finding it hard to meet emissions standard and customers expectations. Stricter standards meant detuning engines or small turbos, the small turbos could not meet the claimed economy figures and therefore not meet customer expectations, meanwhile, the automotive world was switching towards small family SUV vehicles and so fiat concentrated on the 500X they had taken over jeep/Chrysler and so developed the renegade at the same time on the same platform. They where no longer competative against the Corsa, which has had regular updates and facelifts by comparison to the Fiat, the Fiesta which has also been regularly updated and the polo/up which again have seen several updates in the same period.

Punto sales where dropping and when you're looking at dropping a billion euros on developing a new car, is it wise to spend that money on a declining segment of the industry, when your competitors have a monopoly and customers are buying a different type of car?

Had they have launched a new car in 2012 rather than a facelift things may have been different, however at this time Chrysler where going bust and fiat where struggling to avoid being taken down with them. Fiat where using what little money they had to buy up Chrysler shares and so there was no money for a new model.

Fiat had already invested heavily in the 500L assuming this would take the place of the punto as the '500' brand would take over the Fiat brand, that flopped and they then threw what money remained at the 500x... it's clear looking back that a new Punto has been off the cards for a long time, in fact nearly 10 years.

Should also point out that the Mito and Tipo are also being discontinued (the Tipo may still continue in South America but not Europe.

 

[306maxi]

[QQUOTE=puntofan01;4353900]We will have to agree to disagree on that 1. Personally, I say if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I also say simple pleasures, life's treasures. Perhaps if more people learnt to be content, there'd be a lot less debt, and people would be far happier in life!!![/QUOTE]

I mean you’re right partly, but that doesn’t mean that something nicer isn’t... nicer.

I personally think you’re scared of having aspirations. That’s a deeply troubling. There’s nothing wrong with liking stuff that’s out of your league. I drove something with supercar performance a few months back, it was fun, but it didn’t make me hate my own cars.