General Wheels and locking differentials from Cross to Climbing

[adamantios]

Since the new Panda Cross is equipped with 15'' alloy wheels it crossed my mind a thought to change my 14'' alloy wheels with these from the Cross.
The idea is that you probably gain some more clearance (don't know how much) and of course you have the possibility to access more difficult places.
The cons probably will be handling issues especially in cornering but then why FIAT chose that for the Cross?

The other point is that the Cross has locking differential which is very good option especially in mud situations. So, again, I'm thinking is it possible to fit that to Climbimg 4x4. It's just an extra electronic device working with the ABS system, so either you change the whole ABS system or you put something extra.

Any thoughts?

 

[lanchester01]

Hello Adamantios

Your car is fitted with 185/65 X 14 tyres. (Well mine is). This gives a rolling radius of 298mm. The new Cross is fitted with 175/65 X 15. This gives a rolling raduis of 304 mm, so will give 6mm extra ground clearence. Not much, but still something. I don't think it will effect the handling too much as the extra ride height will be offset by the reduction in profile (65% of 175mm rather than 65% of 185mm) but these differences are so small.

My worry would be the increase in gearing. The circumferance of the tyre would increase by about 2%. Again, not much, but the acceleration would be slightly less. Something I'm not sure you will want on a 1.2. This could be retrieved with a K&N filter easily enough though.

I think you would get a great gain in appearance with the 15" rim but I am not sure if that is important to you.

As for the diff. lock I have no idea. I don't see why you cannot retro-fit the unit but the cost?

 

[adamantios]

Tim I suppose you are right that 6mm is not a big gain in ground clearance. I don't know if changing the suspension is easier to gain some extra ground clearance (and I mean to go from 165mm to 185mm or somewhere close)

For the dif lock my idea was to have capabilities close to SUV so that I can go to muddy places more easily

Just thoughts since FIAT is playing with us with all these new models

 

[lanchester01]

I'm with you on modifying this little car to see what it can do and forums like this are great for discussing the different ideas.

I almost found the maximum capability of my car when driving a very muddy and deeply rutted track in Northumberland this summer. I turned back as it was getting dark and I had my 3 year old daughter with me and no recovery equiptment. If I had a hand winch, ropes, another adult and some daylight I would love to have had a go.

A diff lock is a great idea but if you can stop the tyres slipping in the first place you won't need one. So propper mud tyres?
Colway MT are the same tread pattern as BF Goodridge MT at a quarter of the price. The smallest they do is 205/65 X 15. These will not fit between the wheel arches of a Panda. I have been told that if you have your old tyre casings then Colway can re-tread them with whatever patter you want.
We could get onto a manufacturer of mud tyres and ask them to make tyres for the Panda 4X4. We might be suprised.
Another idea is Spike Spiders. http://www.spikesspider.com/
The next thought is; If we are going to get stuck, how can we get out again? Spade, Winch, Land Anchor etc. Have you ever thought about an electric winch in the back bumper?
A pair of 1 metre long bridging ladders might overcome the ground clearence problems.

The Panda has some massive advantages off road compared to a conventional SUV. Namely it's size, it's size and its size. It is also very capable on road and it is very important to keep this balance as this is what makes the Panda 4X4 different to the Suzuki.
Changing the suspension would have to be done with great care as I think Fiat have got this bit dead right.

As you might have guessed, I am happy to discuss this topic until the cows come home from their muddy hillsides.

 

[adamantios]

Tim,
You are absolutely right on the balance that our little car has. But also that Panda is not a real 4x4 but a combination (compromise?) between a real 4x4 and a city car.
Being stuck in mud I have to tell you that dif lock would be a very good solution without having to carry with you extra equipment such as winch (for a city car ) But again if you thinking of going tough you have to go with the company of a real 4x4 in case you stuck.
My idea is to find a solution that will not change dramatically the character of the car since my wife is using it every day in the city.
So far the options are:
a. different tyres (only for the cases you would like to go in rocky and mud places)
b. dif lock if it's available
c. snowchains (also for mud) but I'm not sure if they fit
d.?

 

[lanchester01]

I have a real 4X4. A Range Rover. Damn thing is almost unstopable, but I prefere to drive the Panda these days on road and off. It's just more fun.
The Panda will climb this hill and you will get to the top and say 'Wow! I made it". In the Range Rover you will say "What hill?"

I have found a supplier of mud tyres in the UK to fit the Panda. I'm waiting for the brochure in the post and want to look out some steel rims to put them on. If I want to play on mud I just put them on for the day.
As for the winch, I have a small manual winch which takes up very little room in the boot and was cheap. It has got me out of a few tricky situations.

I think we will always reach the same conclusion that the Panda is a very well balanced compromise, but it is still fun to talk and to experiment.

I think the Panda 4X4 has a lot to offer. If I were fortunate enough to take a big overland trip (my big dream) then I would give my Panda serious concideration over the Range Rover or 2CV.

 

[adamantios]

You are right about the feeling. During last summer I was in a sandy beach and my small Fiat was parked near some "monsterous" SUV and 4x4 (volvo xc90, BMW X5, Suzuki Grand VItara, etc) after playing in the sand.

Regarding the winch I agree that a small one is necessary.

As for the trip you said I plan my Christmas vacations 600 km north of Athens in Kastoria (Mountains, lake, snow) and I'll go with the PANDA
BTW keep me informed about the mud tyres.

 

[lanchester01]

I have the info on the mud tyres.
Go to http://c-tyres.co.uk
They are listed under the Motorsport section.
See Rally Plus and Rally MS. The leaflet I was sent has 185/65X14 listed for the MS, but maybe you would want to go 15s?
I have this make of tyre on my Range Rover and for the price they are very good.
I doubt they are available in Greece but where there is a will there is a way. The factory where they are made is very close to where I live.

Seasonal Ho Ho Hos etc.

 

[adamantios]

Very nice (ugly!) looking tyres, but expensive.
Did by any chance know if there is possibility for our tyres and car to fit snowchains (are they necessary?) I will also ask our friend from France if he needed them.

 

[petebarchetta]

Hello Adamantios

Your car is fitted with 185/65 X 14 tyres. (Well mine is). This gives a rolling radius of 298mm. The new Cross is fitted with 175/65 X 15. This gives a rolling raduis of 304 mm, so will give 6mm extra ground clearence. Not much, but still something. I don't think it will effect the handling too much as the extra ride height will be offset by the reduction in profile (65% of 175mm rather than 65% of 185mm) but these differences are so small.

My worry would be the increase in gearing. The circumferance of the tyre would increase by about 2%. Again, not much, but the acceleration would be slightly less. Something I'm not sure you will want on a 1.2. This could be retrieved with a K&N filter easily enough though.

I think you would get a great gain in appearance with the 15" rim but I am not sure if that is important to you.

As for the diff. lock I have no idea. I don't see why you cannot retro-fit the unit but the cost?

if these are fitted to the cross/ climbing. why do fiat not reccomend this upgrade to the standard panda's??
they blindly refuse that this size wheel cannot be fitted to the car in 2wd guise, but the suspension is no further out on the 4wd car than 2wd the 4wd just gains ground clearance.