General What Engine to go for?

[RobW]

Why? A car with an engine about this size is more than adequate for long runs/high mileages and if all cars were restricted to engines of this size many environmental problems would be solved.

because when you are regularly travelling longer distances and higher milages a year it is more comfortable and practical to have a slightly larger car

mini = town car
supermini = extra urban
small family = above plus motorways
large family/exec = mainly motorways



also small diesels dont make sense when you include the extra purchase cost

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/petrol-vs-diesel/?deriv=46366#manu=2193&model=1662&deriv=46366

 

[multispoke]

I think what RobW meant was that the multijet needs miles - it needs to be driven on a daily basis with some good long runs. If you doing lowish mileage (5-8k miles pa) then the diesel is going to cost you more overall with PDF problems, turbo maintenance etc. To solve environment problems will really involve going electric but that's a different thread.

 

[306maxi]

So then get the one with the lowest insurance quote.

Re twin air out of warantee - any turbo motor can cost big-time out of warantee; diesels are worse though. Honest John (Torygraph journo) reckons to budget £4k for repairs and replacements on TDi's with DPFs between years four and six. My own experience supports this...

I really don't get the fascination that people have with the maintenance of turbo's. There is none! You just need to change the oil as per the service schedule and it'll be fine. The turbo on our Subaru is original and it's done 210,000 miles and lets not forget that it is of an ancient design compared to the turbo's being fitted in cars today.

 

[multispoke]

Hi Maxi. I probably did phrase the maintenance issue on turbos correctly. My experience with Turbos was on an RS Turbo & it was Version II that was water cooled. I would imagine that since the late 80s there have been a lot of advances in this technology but I was always conscious that if I drove the car hard for whatever reason that the car had to 'run on' for about 5 minutes afterwards to stop the bearings carmelising. I supposedly blew the turbo in my mum's car (A Camry) in my 20s and on the RS the turbo was looking at a re-built at 70k miles. On a previous thread it was mentioned that a budget of £4k would be needed on turbo cars after 4 yrs (Honest John ?). For me the Twin Air had the uncertainty of engine life with only 2 cylinders and with the headache of a turbo re-built in the years ahead it might be better to have the bigger engine and live with the extra overhead which would probably balance out if you needed the performance. For me the multijet wouldn't suit me because I run an 'old' estate and it would not get used daily although it is the best compromise if you are doing the mileage.

 

[babbo_umbro]

I think what RobW meant was that the multijet needs miles - it needs to be driven on a daily basis with some good long runs. If you doing lowish mileage (5-8k miles pa) then the diesel is going to cost you more overall with PDF problems, turbo maintenance etc. To solve environment problems will really involve going electric but that's a different thread.

I understand about the mileage/break-even between diesels and petrol - in another thread I noted that we replaced my wife's written-off Panda MJ with a 1.2 as her annual mileage was about to drop from 15,000-plus to 9,000 or so. Not sure about turbo maintenance - I did 150,00 miles in a very tweaked Uno turbo ie, similar mileage in a Tipo Tds, and the Panda MJ had done 38,000 miles and none of them had ever had any maintenance carried out on a turbo; oil changes and front tyre wear on a diesel worked out more of a differentiator compared with petrol.

 

[306maxi]

Thanks for the upper case - wouldn't have understood your comment without it.

I can understand why a bigger body would be more practical if you needed to carry more, but I can't see how a bigger engine is more practical; I agree that a gutless engine working its nuts off can make hard work of a journey but a modern engine of 1.3 litres or so has adequate power unless you're carrying a lot of weight. It's an issue of refinement, aerodynamics, engine efficiency, use of lightweight materials, and so on. This is not new - cars like the Lancia Fulvia proved it decades ago. Surely the point of technical development is to alter the categories that you define, which is also one of the reasons why engines like the TwinAir deserve to succeed as they enable a car to span those categories.

I agree. Our holiday last year was through France, Germany and Italy and all in our 1.2 500 and it was happy to cruise along at a decent speed

 

[babbo_umbro]

I agree. Our holiday last year was through France, Germany and Italy and all in our 1.2 500 and it was happy to cruise along at a decent speed

Exactly - in the last twenty five years we've driven to and from central Italy something like sixty times, with three in the car till about 15 years ago and two since then, plus a load, especially of wine and olive oil on the way back. For one year we drove a Lancia Thema and for three years we drove a Tipo Tds - otherwise my current Panda 100HP has the largest engine. That's over 150,000 miles of practical motoring, saving thousands of gallons of fuel compared to bigger-engined cars, then add the energy content of making bigger cars and the reduced contribution to ecological damage is significant. Why would I need a bigger car?

 

[pearce_jj]

The issues with turbos and in particular turbo diesels are:

1. variable-vane actuators tends to seize up because of the continual temperature cycling. Most TDi's use variable-vane since decent boost (1 bar even) can be delivered from 1,000 rpm which obviously widens the power band of a diesel engine significantly. Once seized the boost control is eliminated as the variable-vane is often used in lieu of a wastegate, so the computer enters limp mode.

2. The DPF has a limited life, with many seaming to wear out at c.75k. Impact will depend on the computer programming.

3. The interaction of the oil, DPF and EGR which necessitate LowSAPS oil because of the mad temperatures. Essentially the EGR recirculates some of the burnt (spoiled) oil naturally used in combustion and this can pollute the oil in the sump very rapidly, leading to thickening which can then clog filters on, for example, oil feed pipes to the turbo. Of course that leads very rapidly indeed to turbo failure and a large bill for cleaning out the sump, pump, and other parts too. This is why some manufacturers (including Fiat) are recommending a flushing oil to be used when changing the oil of diesels (including the MJ).

Of course then there are the catalysts and lamda sensors all getting sooted up continually. My understanding is that DPF life in particular is greatly reduced if the car is continually used for only short periods too.

Hope that heps.

 

[DraigFlag87]

Simple - 500 T-jet aka Abarth :devil:

1.4 so small engine for cheap insurance, easily tuned to whatever you want (most go for around 160 HP) and 46 MPG once run in. That would be my choice of course.

 

[grimwau]

Simple - 500 T-jet aka Abarth :devil:

1.4 so small engine for cheap insurance, easily tuned to whatever you want (most go for around 160 HP) and 46 MPG once run in. That would be my choice of course.

Paul, speaking as a previous owner of both a 1.3MJT 500 and a TwinAir 500 I have to agree with you on this.

Best decision I have made so far, (now where's that piece of wood, lol.)

 

[DraigFlag87]

Despite my numerous problems almost driving me to insanity, i'm still considering buying a new one, that's how good it is!

 

[Venters]

Abarth.

 

[Neil Surrey Labs]

Abarth.

Abarth is out as my 18 yr old son simply wont be insurable

 

[Venters]

Abarth is out as my 18 yr old son simply wont be insurable

No sorry it was for Multispoke. If it were me it would be a twinair, but I try to get what I want, not what makes the best financial sense.

 

[306maxi]

Hi Maxi. I probably did phrase the maintenance issue on turbos correctly. My experience with Turbos was on an RS Turbo & it was Version II that was water cooled. I would imagine that since the late 80s there have been a lot of advances in this technology but I was always conscious that if I drove the car hard for whatever reason that the car had to 'run on' for about 5 minutes afterwards to stop the bearings carmelising. I supposedly blew the turbo in my mum's car (A Camry) in my 20s and on the RS the turbo was looking at a re-built at 70k miles. On a previous thread it was mentioned that a budget of £4k would be needed on turbo cars after 4 yrs (Honest John ?). For me the Twin Air had the uncertainty of engine life with only 2 cylinders and with the headache of a turbo re-built in the years ahead it might be better to have the bigger engine and live with the extra overhead which would probably balance out if you needed the performance. For me the multijet wouldn't suit me because I run an 'old' estate and it would not get used daily although it is the best compromise if you are doing the mileage.

I still don't don't see the issue with turbo's. Unless you're unlucky or drive like a plonker you're unlikely to ever see any issues

 

[RobinPJ]

Abarth.

Multispoke is Irish - Abart is the phonetic spelling for Irish proununciation!

 

[TwinAir Newbie]

I'm new to the 500 and have driven only the 1.2 and the TwinAir.

The 1.2 did a job- end of story as far as I was concerned.

The TwinAir got me hooked straight away and have now bought one- had it less than two weeks.

If economy is your main thing don't get it. If fun and charecter are important then give it a try.

 

[jrkitching]

If economy is your main thing don't get it. If fun and charecter are important then give it a try.

Perhaps the most succinct comment I've seen about the TwinAir thus far, and IMHO absolutely spot on advice.

 

[pearce_jj]

I still don't don't see the issue with turbo's. Unless you're unlucky or drive like a plonker you're unlikely to ever see any issues

Hi Maxi, have a read of my post on the last page. Turbos can and do cause problems, but usually in diesel engines because of oil pollution basically.

 

[multispoke]

Many thanks Pearce_jj for the update on variable vane technology on turbos and the exposure that diesel cars have on oil contamination. My wife has a Mito 1.6 Turbo diesel - I enjoy driving it (but not as much as my 1.4 sport) and like moving the setting to dynamic. I did drive the 1.3 Multijet but it wasn't for me. I was also put off by the 615 mg/km emissions (Band G - sorry Maxi) although the Alfa isn't too good at 486 mg/km. On my history with Turbos they were an older cars and I probably did drive like a plonker but I was fanatical about synthetic oil changes and learned to drive easy for the last 5 miles. I was guilty of tinkering with the boost putting on BBR chips and shortening the engine life. If I am fortunate to get my hands on an Abarth or a Twin Air (against my better judgement) I would be soooo careful with changing the chip to either an essesse Italian black market one or similar.