Technical upgraded anti roll bar for cinq

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Technical upgraded anti roll bar for cinq

I think you'll be very suprised what a 1.4 Cento with properly sorted suspension will be able to keep up with especially on a track like Knockhill...

I would be tempted to run without an ARB at all or just standard tbh and adjust the front srpings to suit and a rear ARB.. depends on your drving style and only you can really decide that..

i.e do you like a loose back end (ooh err :rolleyes:) or do you like it to all feel quite tight and suddenly let go on you (that all sounds dodgy :eek:)



EDIT: EVO's and bmw's are no big deal if driven crap I mean my near standard Clio held a mod'd FQ300 into silly numbers..
 
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:yeahthat:
Quite often it's not so much a case of performance advantage but rather driver disadvantage.

As for suspension, if you're lowering for road use you want to keep around -40mm from sporting height, so as long as you can sort out the geometry on 195/45R15 rubber you're looking at a 65mm drop.
 
well that might be worth trying with just the rear one and standard front and then if i feel like it needs to be stiffer then more can be done as time is no object cause i have loadz lol as for keeping up with the big car i wil show you what i mean by not gonna be able to keep up with them.



(silver corsa with black bonnet is my mates)

cheers gregor
 
We will be running a custom made rear anti-roll bar on our Cinq track car. Once its complete I will post up pictures but its made from a 19mm front MGF anti roll bar, cut, sleeved welded and so far mocked up with Lancia integrale EVO front rose jointed drop links.

There was a rear anti-roll bar on Adz old Cinq, made from I think a VX Cartlon rear bar, it worked well as the lifting of inside wheel and much flatter corning than you expect from Cinqs with even stiff suspension as pictures of it going round Castle Combe show clearly.

On the front bar I would remove and check the bushes they will be getting old now, on one we removed from our Cinq they were long past there best, badly compressed and cracked and perishing. I'd replace these with minimum new ones or get some universal poly ones, the bar is approx 18.5mm diameter IIRC.

Having fitted a WhiteLineFlatOut rear anti-roll bar to my Suzuki Ignis Sport which had none as standard the turn in was incredible, made it have near no understeer, it also ran a uprated matched WhilteLine front, though many owners ran standard front and the WhiteLine rear and loved it.

I also run a WhilteLine adjustable rear anti-roll bar on my GT4 which has eliminated the understeer, in fact on hardest setting makes rear end very tail happy, fun in a 4WD car.

You can if running a rear anti-roll bar reduce spring rates and get a more compliant ride as a result, but with better turn in and less roll.

As has been explained some owners have removed the front anti-roll bar and then compensated by running much harder springs to resist roll.

We have also modified our rear arms to give some negative camber, the tolerance from factory is pretty big, eye opening big in fact though don't have the figures to hand we are aiming for 2degrees -ve camber rear.

Remember not to confuse stiffness for overall grip. having driving Knockhill in a variety of machines its a bumpy track with many elevation changes that favor some compliance in the suspension.

Forgot to add, driver skill plays huge part in it, in Jamie's near standard Clio 172 Phase 2 on very cheap 3 diff makes of tyres, 2 matching Nexens front, one Kumho and Champiro??? fitted rear as fitted to track wheels picked up from ebay for £85. At Castle Combe on Fri he went past a Corsa running a redtop with ease, and the stripped out Clio 172 phase 1 on Dunlop slicks, LSD and high lift cams was barely quicker, and unfortunetly that car ended up in barriers later on the day. Remarkably those tyres did something like 40 laps of CC which is regarded as one of the quickest club circuits in the UK.
 
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Many years ago there was a race series at Knockhill for road cars.

The rich boys turned up in their turbo BMWs and Porsches.

Thet were all soundly trounced by a Hillman Avenger 1600 forest stage rally car.

The Avenger was on forest suspension but had good tyres and most importantly great brakes.

The rich boys would disappear over the horizon for three or four laps, then they would have to start braking for the hairpin half way along the bendy straight.

All the power in the world is no use if you cannae slow it down for the twisty bits.

The quickest way through the esses is to take a kerb to kerb line, you can't do that on lowered stiff suspension without bouncing in to the tyre wall.

Check out the inner kerb at the hairpin. You used to be able to hook your inner wheels over the inside of the kerb to slingshot you round.

Cheers

SPD
 
We will be running a custom made rear anti-roll bar on our Cinq track car. Once its complete I will post up pictures but its made from a 19mm front MGF anti roll bar, cut, sleeved welded and so far mocked up with Lancia integrale EVO front rose jointed drop links.

There was a rear anti-roll bar on Adz old Cinq, made from I think a VX Cartlon rear bar, it worked well as the lifting of inside wheel and much flatter corning than you expect from Cinqs with even stiff suspension as pictures of it going round Castle Combe show clearly.

any chance of pics on the way it is mounted?
what were the thicknesses used?
can any steel be used or does it have to be spring steel?
 
any chance of pics on the way it is mounted?
what were the thicknesses used?
can any steel be used or does it have to be spring steel?

Yes once it is finished, which will include the whole rear assembly being blasted and painted/powder coated it will be photographed and shown on here, always willing to pass on details of what we do.

As I said its a front MGF anti-roll bar 19mm, reason I choose it was it was readily available and as an MGF is mid-engined the front has less weight than other cars hence bar should not be too strong, its a bit trial and error but its looking good so far. Again this is reason for I think Adz bar being made from a rear Carlton bar, not as much weight out back of a front engined car.

Its held in place with custom mounting plates and a spare set of front Cinq anti-roll bar mounts and bushes. I can't take any credit for it other than buying the bar as its looked like it would work, correct angle of bends etc and supplying spare integrale drop mounts, everything else is credit to Emma's dad, he's the one who has worked out where everything is going.
 
As has been explained some owners have removed the front anti-roll bar and then compensated by running much harder springs to resist roll.
Note quite true in my case. I junked the ARB because it was seriously limiting the suspension travel on the outside wheel when cornering hard causing sudden & massive understeer.

My spring rate isn't high for roll compensation, it's there so I can make the best use of the brakes, at peek braking performance my weight distribution is probably around the 85:15 F:R mark which requires a much higher spring rate to maintain proper control.
 
wouldn't a bar off a sporting work if you shorten the arm (or make an adjustable link)?
That would make it stiffer that the front...ergo counter understeer.
The question is if it can be adjusted enough.....
 
wouldn't a bar off a sporting work if you shorten the arm (or make an adjustable link)?
That would make it stiffer that the front...ergo counter understeer.
The question is if it can be adjusted enough.....

Makiing it too stiff causes understeer. Remember the bar is free to move in the vertical plane, if one wheel is compressing the ARB it can lift the other side causing the whole car to sit down and push on.

Suspension is a balancing act between spring rates, damper rates and ARB rates at both ends of the car.

Something out of kilter at one point can cause problems elsewhere.

You cannot look at one piece of equipment as a cure all.

Cheers

SPD
 
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Makiing it too stiff causes understeer. Remember the bar is free to move in the vertical plane, if one wheel is compressing the ARB it can lift the other side causing the whole car to sit down and push on.

Suspension is a balancing act between spring rates, damper rates and ARB rates at both ends of the car.

Something out of kilter at one point can cause problems elsewhere.

You cannot look at one piece of equipment as a cure all.

Cheers

SPD

Sorry I meant using a front bar at the rear but with shorter arms, making it stiffer.
 
I have no idea :confused:

just trying to think of possibilities.
you would need to mount it where it has enough room above and below for movement.
So having it pointing towards the rear is out...pointing forward then.
But then the spare wheel bay is in the way.....
maybe a narrow one mounted on the rear edge of the spare wheel bay?
that would increase stiffness too......but maybe too much.
 
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Dont let him claim this mod it's Lloyd racing that did the graft ;) lol

J333EVO said:
I can't take any credit for it other than buying the bar as it looked like it would work, correct angle of bends, thickness etc and supplying spare integrale drop links, everything else is credit to Emma's dad, he's the one who has worked out where everything is going.

Don't want to be pedantic here but I already said I couldn't take the credit apart from sitting on ebay looking at all the 2nd hand anti-roll bars and using nothing more than gut feeling as to what may work, as I don't have years of experience working for for Chequered Flag Lancia Stratos rally team, Nissan Rally Europe, Tickford, Cosworth etc etc so thats last time I find you cheap parts for your car while looking on ebay which is the bit I do best lol :D
 
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