Technical Uno Fire – Trouble changing gears

[DigitalNomad]

Hi there folks.

My little Uno is honestly giving me lots of gray hair but with the help of the kind folks out here on the forums, I am putting humpty dumpty back together again.

Those of you who have been following my adventures might know the story about how I got done in by the local mechanics and how they managed to cause a lot of damage etc... Long story short, about a month or so ago, I parked the car and the next day after starting her up, I could not get her into any gears. I could get her into neutral, but when I tried to get to reverse or first etc. I would mean that I would have to force and grind it into gear. I pumped the clutch a couple of shots (it has a hydraulic system) but to no avail. Eventually I had it towed in suspecting the clutch was shot. The fellow phoned me back a couple of days later and told me he had to only replace the slave cylinder and it is working fine.

Prior to this incident I have never had any trouble with the clutch at all. Since I got it back it now has a new problem. I would drive for a day or two and change gears with no trouble, and then all of a sudden, it would feel as if the clutch pedal has less pressure on it and when I try to get up to gear two from one, I cant...I can get to neutral, but will have to grind and force it into second or even first then. This can happen during driving as well as after coming to a stop, when I want to get into first to move along, no go, all gears would need to be grinded in...after pumping the clutch a couple of shots and even switching the car off sometimes and working the gears “off-line” it would go again for a while.

I have bled the hydraulics a couple of shots, this afternoon again, there is not one singe air bubble in the system. I bled through half a bottle of break fluïde just to be dead sure.

I took my trusty fiancé with me and the instant it did this, I stopped the car holding the clutch in the last position, which is down...she then pops the hood and can clearly see that the slave cylinder is extended and has moved the clutch supposedly...when I pump the clutch there is also clear movement of the rod extending from the cylinder.

I cant go back to the mechanic...he destroyed some of my electronics during his work and lots of other things, these people are crazy down here and I just got most of the stuff sorted out including a oil leak fixed on the selector with the kind help of jjhepburn et al.

Could anybody please share with me other things I could check out. For example, is it possible that this is in fact a clutch plate or release bearing type of problem, is there a way to test this. How far is the slave cylinder supposed to extend that little rod thingy which operates the clutch inside? Is there a way to test if this so called new cylinder is in fact working properly (strong enough) etc. as this symptom only started after I got the car back after the cylinder replacement.

I can also just mention that I did take the car to a different mechanic after the slave installation and that guy went and installed a new master cylinder as well in front of me. I say how clogged and messed up it was and we both thought we found the trouble, but apparently not.
Any help about tests etc. I can do would be greatly appreciated.

Warm regards,

 

[DigitalNomad]

Hi folks,

I just found a forum post about how to bleed a hydraulic clutch system. Initially I thought nothing about it as the first lot of steps was exactly what I did, but then things got interesting towards the end as it turns out that apparently the slave cylinder itself also needs to be bled.

Hope I do not get into trouble for copy/pasting it here, but here are the steps proposed. Could somebody perhaps confirm if steps 14 to 19 is in fact applicable to my little Uno as well because this I have never done yet. Perhaps this could be a clue.

These steps were found at this link and is not my own invention, thanks to the person going by the name of “Strm Trpr” who made that post.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-drivetrain/213503-how-properly-bleed-your-hydraulic-clutch.html


This method of clutch bleeding will work on pretty much any car.
Forget about what the manuals tell you!

First off you'll need the following:

1) Goggles or other form of eye protection to prevent brake fluid from splashing into your eyes.
2) Get a clutch pedal buddy, a person that can push the clutch pedal in and hold it to the floor, and then lift the pedal off of the floor on command.
3) Jack stands and a jack so you can properly support the front of your vehicle while you bleed the system.
4) Brake fluid, and a pan of some sort to catch brake fluid as you bleed the system.
---I like to use a length of hose that fits snuggly onto the bleeder screw hose barb of the slave cylinder and then position the other end of the hose in a mason jar filled about 2 inches deep with brake fluid.
---This will prevent air from entering the slave cylinder when you are bleeding the Master Cylinder.
5) You'll need some rags handy just in case you spill some brake fluid. Remember, brake fluid is very corrosive, it will damage skin, eyes, paint etc...
6) Last but not least, a 10mm Flare Nut Wrench, this is a must, without it, you will round off your bleeder screw hex if the bleeder screw is on tight.

Procedure:
1) Properly support the front of the vehicle on jack stands.
2) Install Clutch Pedal Buddy in driver's seat. (DO NOT PUMP THE PEDAL AT ALL THROUGHOUT THIS ENTIRE PROCESS).
3) Remove Master Cylinder Reservoir Lid.
4) Top off reservoir with brake fluid.
5) Next, you'll be opening and closing the Slave Cylinder Bleeder Screw.

CAUTION: Protect your eyes from squirting brake fluid.

6) (Helper) Press clutch pedal in fully to the floor and hold.
7) (You) Open the bleed screw to allow fluid to flow.
8) (You) Close bleed screw.
9) (Helper) Release clutch pedal. You may have to pick the pedal up off of the floor, do this slowly and smoothly all the way up.
10) Repeat steps 6-9 two times, and then top off the reservoir.
11) Repeat steps 6-9 three more times, and then top off the reservoir.
12) You're not done yet, but you just bled the master cylinder and the hydraulic line, next you have to bleed the slave cylinder. (This is what the manuals don't tell you).
13) There will be no further action needed with the clutch pedal, so remover your Clutch Pedal Buddy from the driver's seat.
14) Make sure the reservoir is topped off.
15) Now, you're about to properly bleed the slave cylinder.
16) Place a pan or equal under the slave cylinder bleed screw, and completely remove the bleed screw from the slave cylinder body.
13) Your helper should have the bleed screw and a wrench ready to tighten the bleed screw into the slave cylinder.
Please remember to protect your eyes and those of your buddy's.
14) With the bleed screw removed, firmly press and hold the slave cylinder push rod into the body of the slave cylinder. Yes you read it right, push the rod into the slave cylinder and hold it.
15) Be careful, as soon as you push that rod back into the slave cylinder, it will and without remorse squirt brake fluid onto anything within reach.
16) Have your buddy reinstall the bleed screw and tighten it with the flare nut wrench all the while you're still holding the push rod in.
17) Once the bleed screw is tight, release the rod and as it comes out, guide it into the proper position on the clutch arm.
18) Work your clutch pedal a couple of times, and notice that your reservoir is filled right up to the Max Fill Line.
19) Install reservoir lid, lower the car, and give a test drive....

 

[steve3123]

Hi folks,

I just found a forum post about how to bleed a hydraulic clutch system. Initially I thought nothing about it as the first lot of steps was exactly what I did, but then things got interesting towards the end as it turns out that apparently the slave cylinder itself also needs to be bled.

Hope I do not get into trouble for copy/pasting it here, but here are the steps proposed. Could somebody perhaps confirm if steps 14 to 19 is in fact applicable to my little Uno as well because this I have never done yet. Perhaps this could be a clue.

These steps were found at this link and is not my own invention, thanks to the person going by the name of “Strm Trpr” who made that post.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-drivetrain/213503-how-properly-bleed-your-hydraulic-clutch.html


This method of clutch bleeding will work on pretty much any car.
Forget about what the manuals tell you!

First off you'll need the following:

1) Goggles or other form of eye protection to prevent brake fluid from splashing into your eyes.
2) Get a clutch pedal buddy, a person that can push the clutch pedal in and hold it to the floor, and then lift the pedal off of the floor on command.
3) Jack stands and a jack so you can properly support the front of your vehicle while you bleed the system.
4) Brake fluid, and a pan of some sort to catch brake fluid as you bleed the system.
---I like to use a length of hose that fits snuggly onto the bleeder screw hose barb of the slave cylinder and then position the other end of the hose in a mason jar filled about 2 inches deep with brake fluid.
---This will prevent air from entering the slave cylinder when you are bleeding the Master Cylinder.
5) You'll need some rags handy just in case you spill some brake fluid. Remember, brake fluid is very corrosive, it will damage skin, eyes, paint etc...
6) Last but not least, a 10mm Flare Nut Wrench, this is a must, without it, you will round off your bleeder screw hex if the bleeder screw is on tight.

Procedure:
1) Properly support the front of the vehicle on jack stands.
2) Install Clutch Pedal Buddy in driver's seat. (DO NOT PUMP THE PEDAL AT ALL THROUGHOUT THIS ENTIRE PROCESS).
3) Remove Master Cylinder Reservoir Lid.
4) Top off reservoir with brake fluid.
5) Next, you'll be opening and closing the Slave Cylinder Bleeder Screw.

CAUTION: Protect your eyes from squirting brake fluid.

6) (Helper) Press clutch pedal in fully to the floor and hold.
7) (You) Open the bleed screw to allow fluid to flow.
8) (You) Close bleed screw.
9) (Helper) Release clutch pedal. You may have to pick the pedal up off of the floor, do this slowly and smoothly all the way up.
10) Repeat steps 6-9 two times, and then top off the reservoir.
11) Repeat steps 6-9 three more times, and then top off the reservoir.
12) You're not done yet, but you just bled the master cylinder and the hydraulic line, next you have to bleed the slave cylinder. (This is what the manuals don't tell you).
13) There will be no further action needed with the clutch pedal, so remover your Clutch Pedal Buddy from the driver's seat.
14) Make sure the reservoir is topped off.
15) Now, you're about to properly bleed the slave cylinder.
16) Place a pan or equal under the slave cylinder bleed screw, and completely remove the bleed screw from the slave cylinder body.
13) Your helper should have the bleed screw and a wrench ready to tighten the bleed screw into the slave cylinder.
Please remember to protect your eyes and those of your buddy's.
14) With the bleed screw removed, firmly press and hold the slave cylinder push rod into the body of the slave cylinder. Yes you read it right, push the rod into the slave cylinder and hold it.
15) Be careful, as soon as you push that rod back into the slave cylinder, it will and without remorse squirt brake fluid onto anything within reach.
16) Have your buddy reinstall the bleed screw and tighten it with the flare nut wrench all the while you're still holding the push rod in.
17) Once the bleed screw is tight, release the rod and as it comes out, guide it into the proper position on the clutch arm.
18) Work your clutch pedal a couple of times, and notice that your reservoir is filled right up to the Max Fill Line.
19) Install reservoir lid, lower the car, and give a test drive....

I dont know about your uno, but this is exactly what we did with my brothers panda. My uno ive never had to touch, mainly because its still not running yet!

 

[rawill]

I have never had to use that procedure. But it does make sense. And not that I think about it, we did have trouble getting all the air out of an air over hydraulics clutch on my 89 Nissan Condor. We had only replaced a flexible hose but it took ages to get the clutch to work properly again.

Thanks for the post. Hope it worked for you, it should, you have a neew M/cylinder and slave so it should be good. Your description of how much movement you have at the slave cylinder pushrod sounds right. At rest it should only have a little clearance say 1-2 mm. So long as there is clearance it is ok.

 

[DigitalNomad]

.... At rest it should only have a little clearance say 1-2 mm. So long as there is clearance it is ok.

Hi there,

Thanks for the post. I just tried those steps 14-19. There seems to be no clearance at all in its "rest" position. I had difficulty prying a screwdriver in there to give me some leverage.

I will drive a bit now and take my fiance to work etc...will report back a bit later.

In the mean time, if you think of another possible cause for this strange symptoms, please let me know.

Kind regards,

 

[Barney vd Merwe]

Re: Trouble changing gears

Louw - Roux

These are the facts, that mechhi was not interested in changing the seals in the MASTER cylinder (because it is not such an easy jobbie) but changed the seals in the SLAVE cylinder on the gearbox bellhousing and claims " oh, the clutch is ok now !" Trust me I know, been there - done that.

Lets face it, the car has done high mileage on the clock and it is time - most possibly the clutch - plate and release bearing has had it days. But before going that route do yourself a favour; buy the seals for the Master & the Slave cylinders (bugger the mech - did he really replace the seals) at your local spare shop - this is gonna cost you less than a R100 bucks, guaranteed. Take off a Saturday afternoon replacing the seals on the MASTER cylinder (underneath the console - not such a pleasent job - a bit time consuming) and thereafter the seals on the SLAVE cylinder (this is only a 10 minute jobbie) After all of this...bleed the clutch again, take her for a drive and keep your hopes up - the clutch plate and release bearing might still be ok for the next couple of months/years...

I had my days of hydraulic cluthes on the Uno, I replaced these seals on my first Pacer, my wife's Fire and my "new" Pacer is due soon (Brake fluid is constantly dripping on my left shoe while driving, obviously the seals on the MASTER cylinder has perished - I just dont have the stomach for this right now)

Regards

 

[DigitalNomad]

Re: Trouble changing gears

Louw - Roux

These are the facts, that mechhi was not interested in changing the seals in the MASTER cylinder (because it is not such an easy jobbie) but changed the seals in the SLAVE cylinder on the gearbox bellhousing and claims " oh, the clutch is ok now !" Trust me I know, been there - done that.........

Hi there Barney,

Great to hear from you again. Deep, very deep down in my mind where I hide all those types of thoughts I’m scared of, there is that one thought that yes, it might be clutch kit time
I just got back from a short drive and it did it again slightly, but not as bad as before.

Things I have done, tested, replaced, repaired etc. till now is as follows:

The original mech who started the avalanche of trouble I have had, completely replaced the slave cylinder. I can not say for sure if it is brand new, only that it is golden copper coloured and looks new in comparison with how the new master cylinder looks (also a golden colour), the originals was grey-ish. But here is the twist in this horror movie. I just called up the second mech and spoke a bit to him since he replaced the original master. He now says it was not brand new, but a couple of months old. He says it belonged to a customer who also complained about a small drop of break fluid on the shoes now and then. What he did for me was to purchase a repair kit which he installed which included the seals etc...and when I got there, it was already assembled and he installed it for me. I just did an inspection there of the unit under the steering and all is dry, there is not a drop of oil to be seen. I checked the hoses, connectors etc. no leaks no where

You see just how crooked these people are? The other day and on my invoice he stated it was new, now I find out it is reconditioned basically. I just cant’ take it anymore

So whether the salve is new or not and just another recon also, I wont know. So my question now is, with no physical evidence of fluid leaks, would you still suggest me replacing the seals ? Is it thus possible that air could be drawn into one of the cylinders but fluid is never leaked out? The level in the separate reservoire stays the same also.

What I did just now, was to pull the handbrake up tight, flipped it into first gear and tried to pull away, the car just sank into the ground almost. There was no sign of the clutch slipping and the revs was equal all the time and in pace with me stepping on the accelerator. Also while driving there is never slipping at all. I know this is not a fool proof way of testing the clutch plate, but from this experiment would you consider ruling the plate out? If so it leaves us with the release bearing which I am not sure one can test...what about the possibility of the fork being bent?

This is driving me nuts

I am no mech by a long shot and just trying to assemble some pieces of logic in order to trust my deductions a bit more so please forgive me if some of the questions sound a bit daft
Just one last thing, if it is the plate or bearing that has worn out, could it still be possible that I would be experiencing intermittent trouble or would it fail all the time.

I’m sure you can see I am trying hard to keep that dreaded clutch kit thought from surfacing

Warm regards,

 

[a73uk]

It is likely to be clutch at this stage in its life, but just out of interest, have you checked theres oil in the gearbox? they tend to leak, mainly from the driveshaft seals on the diff, also has the oil ever been changed? was it the right oil?

 

[Louie Bee]

Hmm that post looks like something ripped off here any way!

There is no bleed on the clutch master cylinder on the Uno – so Don’t worry about that.

I’ve done mine twice – second time, I realised that there is a one way valve and it don’t suck air back in so you can do it your self.

I also had troubles where I could not change gears without scraping. It turned out to be the clutch cover had only a few fins left where the bearing goes so the bearing was useless.

Top left one here..

driven plate was OK.

Thread is here

https://www.fiatforum.com/uno/130044-louie-s-first-clutch-job.html

 

[DigitalNomad]

It is likely to be clutch at this stage in its life, but just out of interest, have you checked theres oil in the gearbox? they tend to leak, mainly from the driveshaft seals on the diff, also has the oil ever been changed? was it the right oil?

Hi there,

Thanks for the post. Yes, there was a leak at the selector. I replaced the orings earlier this week en ensured the oil in the transmission was topped up again. All the oil was changed about 4500km ago, so pretty recent.

Warm regards,

 

[DigitalNomad]

Hmm that post looks like something ripped off here any way!

There is no bleed on the clutch master cylinder on the Uno – so Don’t worry about that...

Hi there,

Thanks you kindly for your post and the photo. I think in the end it'll have to be taken appart. I have enough tools etc. just short of two jack stands, some good luck and a small fortune to pay for the clutch kit

I will start studying the threads with regards to the procedures. It is only removing the drive shafts that kind of scares me, the rest I see chance for. Oh yes, also centering the plate again, apparently it is difficult to keep it centre while putting the cover back on.

On the other hand I am also wondering if I am not making a mistake and that I am over capitalizing on the car, I will never ever see this money and all the other money spent. This is really worring me also

This morning I bled the clutch once more and the slave also. It seems as if the nipple does not completely close, i.e. when it is tight, and we step on the peddal, there seems to be movement in the plastic tube still attached to it. This seems strange as it has never leaked there before. But I am still unsure whether it is possible that a leak could be one way, i.e. air could be sucked in, but fluid not neccesarily leaked out at the same place.

Thanks once more for the feedback, time to go drown my sorrows in a cup of bitter coffee

Warm regards,

 

[Louie Bee]

Shame!

I'm breaking the Uno I put the clutch kit on only a few thousand miles ago . depending on how neer you are, it may be worth while taking a second hand one.

as the the drive shafts, I'd say the harder bit is puting them back and getthing a big enough torque wrench to do it properly. Oh and lifting the gearbox back on alone ,

the centering isn't too dificult. I did it by eye