Technical Trouble starting

[tobywood13]

Hi all, I have a 1992 Panda CLX with the FIRE engine. A few days ago my car had a hot start issue which I solved by pouring cool water on the fuel lines, the next day it took a lot of cranking to get the car going but then it was fine all day, now it won’t start properly.

With no choke and the throttle held all the way down it will run for a few seconds, rev with the throttle, but then splutter and die. When it dies the carb seems quite full with fuel. I’ve replaced the vacuum diaphragm, taken the carb apart and cleaned it, changed the in-line fuel filter (which doesn’t fill up very much now), and still it won’t go. I also ran the fuel pump into a bucket as I cranked the car and it delivered fuel in bursts or pulses rather than a steady flow. Any ideas what might be wrong still? I’m thinking the fuel pump, but as it’s mechanical and it ran fine after a rough start the other day I’m not certain. Thanks!

 

[porta]

Coils can break down in any situation, many get VERY hot…I think I’ve mentioned elsewhere, on classic panda, Uno and X19 threads about the experiences of defunct coils and mistakingly thinking it was a carb issue…and I’m a car-sparky from that era!

 

[tobywood13]

Coils can break down in any situation, many get VERY hot…I think I’ve mentioned elsewhere, on classic panda, Uno and X19 threads about the experiences of defunct coils and mistakingly thinking it was a carb issue…and I’m a car-sparky from that era!

So a dodgy coil can generate one spark consistently? But then it can do all four after lots of cranking and sputtering?

 

[porta]

https://www.oldcarsweekly.com/blogs/ignition-coil-basics

Plenty of YouTube advice videos also

 

[jackwhoo]

So a dodgy coil can generate one spark consistently? But then it can do all four after lots of cranking and sputtering?

I can't see how a faulty coil could do that.

I can see how points distributor could cause the condition described.

Where are the photos of the distributor and ignition coil?

 

[porta]

I can't see how a faulty coil could do that.

I can see how points distributor could cause the condition described.

Where are the photos of the distributor and ignition coil?

True, the spark is distributed by the distributor……but are we getting a consistent spark

 

[tobywood13]

True, the spark is distributed by the distributor……but are we getting a consistent spark

I’ll check the spark coming directly off the coil tomorrow, see if it sparks four times faster than the one lead off the distributor I had? It was a very hot day with a lot of driving when this all started happening, so it could be a gammy coil.

 

[tobywood13]

I can't see how a faulty coil could do that.

I can see how points distributor could cause the condition described.

Where are the photos of the distributor and ignition coil?

Photos of the distributor and coil should be in an earlier reply on this thread.

 

[porta]

Photos of the distributor and coil should be in an earlier reply on this thread.

The coil should spark regardless, it’s the distributor that distributes that spark to each plug

 

[jackwhoo]

The coil should spark regardless, it’s the distributor that distributes that spark to each plug

Hi Porta,

Yes it should but.......
If it's points distributor and worn plus heel of points well worn, it is possible only one of the cam lobes opening the points. That case would result in spark at one cylinder.


The points distributor on my mk1 panda was abysmal at 70,000 miles.

Apologies to op I missed photos so went back to start of thread and found them.

Cheers
Jack

 

[jackwhoo]

Photos of the distributor and coil should be in an earlier reply on this thread.

Hi,
I missed photos earlier my error sorry.

Yes that is a distributor with points and condenser mounted on outside.

check the points are opening correctly critical for spark as is a working condenser.

Wear in the points or the heel that opens the points affects the ignition timing too so any adjustment of points has to be followed by setting ignition timing.

Distributor cap and rotor arm look ok (-:
The coil appears correct .

Best wishes

Jack

 

[Dragon Man]

thats not an original coil, its impedance could be out causing it to have started arcing internally.
it could be your ignition leads giving out. ive known them to short to a ground only when hot. it could also be failed plugs. i have had it LOADS of times where a spark plug has failed (usually on single cylinder stuff).. to test this knock the spark plug gap really really small the see how it runs. you usually find it will run fine for a few weeks then start doing this again. you can also check your spark gap manually by using a jumper cable, one end earthed close to the coil he other end free. unplug a lead from the distributor and bring the free end of the jump lead close to the terminal you just unplugged the HT lead from. get someone to crank the engine over and check to see how far the spark jumps the gap. it should with ease jump a good 2 even 3 cms
i would also do the same with the coil too, unplug the king HT lead from it and again check how far the spark jumps the gap. again it should with ease jump out of the coil to the jumper cable.

 

[tobywood13]

The leads are fine, the plugs are fine, the distributor is sending one spark so the points must be fine (I think), that leaves a dodgy distributor cap, rotor, or a weak coil surely? If the contacts on the inside of the distributor cap are worn out, would this explain only one spark going through?

 

[Dragon Man]

hmm its hard to say without tests. last time i bought a distributor cap it was quite cheap £7.99 on ebay i think.
if i was going down the route where i was just replacing parts till it fixed it, i would start at the plugs, then the leads, then the cap, then the condenser then the points, then the coil.

if you want to check the points are working correctly you can use a bulb on some wire. connect one wire from the bulb to the battery + then connect the other bulb wire to the terminal on the coil with the green wire coming from the distributor. take the distributor cap off and turn the engine by hand. when the rota arm hits the 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions the bulb should light up. if the bulb only lights up in say one of those positions it would indicate worn out points or points that need adjustment

i would also check to make sure that stable power was getting to the coil. using a bit of wire i would undo the cable coming from under the cabin air box/heater (usually a blue and white cable but have seen other colours before, just checked yours is brown) and run another cable directly from the battery + to that terminal you just taken the wire off from. dont touch it on the terminal with green wire coming from the distributor, doing so would damage the points. start the engine and see how it runs.

also looking back at the picture of your distributor, you ignition timing is also off.. it could do with being timed up using a timing light gun. not really a running issue, more of an engine efficiency thing.

 

[tobywood13]

hmm its hard to say without tests. last time i bought a distributor cap it was quite cheap £7.99 on ebay i think.
if i was going down the route where i was just replacing parts till it fixed it, i would start at the plugs, then the leads, then the cap, then the condenser then the points, then the coil.

if you want to check the points are working correctly you can use a bulb on some wire. connect one wire from the bulb to the battery + then connect the other bulb wire to the terminal on the coil with the green wire coming from the distributor. take the distributor cap off and turn the engine by hand. when the rota arm hits the 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions the bulb should light up. if the bulb only lights up in say one of those positions it would indicate worn out points or points that need adjustment

i would also check to make sure that stable power was getting to the coil. using a bit of wire i would undo the cable coming from under the cabin air box/heater (usually a blue and white cable but have seen other colours before, just checked yours is brown) and run another cable directly from the battery + to that terminal you just taken the wire off from. dont touch it on the terminal with green wire coming from the distributor, doing so would damage the points. start the engine and see how it runs.

also looking back at the picture of your distributor, you ignition timing is also off.. it could do with being timed up using a timing light gun. not really a running issue, more of an engine efficiency thing.

Alright, that’s my next plan of action sorted. Thanks for the advice. Having a distributor is new to me so I’m having to learn how to properly do all this as I go, which is fun.

 

[Dragon Man]

always said i was born in the wrong era. the way i am and how i learn all this stuff.. if i was borne in my grandads time i would have made some crazy stuff.
right now i am trying to work out how to fit a 3ltr BMW i6 diesel into a fiat panda.. its all doable but the steering rack is just in the way.

anyway keep us posted on your progress

 

[Palio]

Does it have one of those stupid ignition modules attached to the carb? They are constantly causing issues with the 4x4’s. It’s that which controls the spark, and causes all manner of problems starting and running. They are cheap and simple to replace, so I’d do that if it’s present on the engine!

You’ve also checked the fuel pipes for cracking presumably, including the short one you can’t see under the air filter? Sounds more spark to me, but cracked pipes could be a culprit.

 

[tobywood13]

Ok, update. Apologies for the delay I’ve been very busy with non-Panda things. After lots of one cylinder running it eventually stopped doing even that. I replaced the cap and rotor, and it went back to one cylinder running. I replaced the coil, and after a long time of one cylinder running on full throttle the rest gradually came into life, but it required delicate use of throttle. Now it’s running ok after this long starting process, but stalls if you stamp on the throttle a few times. Too much fuel, or weak spark I think. Likely the spark.

The only things left to replace are the plugs, and the condenser I think. At least it’s started again though, so it must be due to a weak spark. I’ll do the plugs next and go from there. Not sure if the symptoms line up with dodgy points or condenser as it does get going eventually. My brain tells me if they were broken then it would never run, rather than doing the one cylinder graaaadually firing up the rest thing.

Thanks for the tips for tests to run, they were very handy. Any further suggestions more than welcome.

 

[tobywood13]

Tried it again today. Still wouldn't start, just ran on one cylinder with full throttle before spluttering out. So it seems the new coil, cap, and rotor didn't really change anythning. Just need to work out why only cylinder is getting a spark, but also why after a good amount of time on one cylinder the other three eventually do start running. Will test if spark is getting to the plugs at least next, that should rule out HT leads if the spark tester flashes. If it is flashing, it's dodgy plugs. If not flashing, HT leads, condenser, points?

Very strange symptoms.

 

[tobywood13]

Took the distributor apart and replaced the condenser and spark plugs, now not getting any spark from the coil. Tempted to do an electronic ignition conversion now…

@Dragon Man do you know if the standard FIRE electronic ignition kit available from Ricambio works with my existing coil? I’ve read lots of your stuff about electronic ignition on other posts but can’t work out which coils have which specifications.

This is the coil I have: https://www.ricambio.co.uk/ignition...4-127-128-131-132-classic-panda-lancia-fulvia

And this is the ignition kit I’m looking at: https://www.ricambio.co.uk/electronic-distributor-complete-classic-fiat-panda-uno-1

Thanks for any info.

 

[Dragon Man]

yes, your coil should be fine with that. i had a coil that only measured 1.2 ohm and the module burned out. i am running one that is 5 ohm now from a fiat uno (that had the bosch spi injection system)