Tuning TMC Tuning Box.. FOR T-JET

[Overbewst]

I've done extensive searches but not found any threads about the T-JET 120 PETROL version of the box.. it seems they're all M-JETS.

So as you can guess, the question is does anyone here have any experience with the TMC box on a T-Jet 120?

The figures on the site don't look bad, I'm trying to make my mind up between the TMC and a few other brands.



P.S. please don't reccomend I get a remap.

CHEERS

 

[Overbewst]

Nobody has one?

 

[B3NNETT]

get a remap

 

[TMC Motorsport]

I've done extensive searches but not found any threads about the T-JET 120 PETROL version of the box.. it seems they're all M-JETS.

So as you can guess, the question is does anyone here have any experience with the TMC box on a T-Jet 120?

The figures on the site don't look bad, I'm trying to make my mind up between the TMC and a few other brands.



P.S. please don't reccomend I get a remap.

CHEERS

I've sold 27 of these kits for Fiat TJet in the last two weeks so plenty of people have them, the reason you can't get info on public forums is because the people who buy them don't want the world to know they have it fitted. They are concerned about losing their warranty which may happen if you remap because Fiat are voiding warranty on any cars with additional flashes on the ECU flash counter.
If your car is out of warranty then thats not an issue but if not its something to think about.

You could also have your warranty void if you went to the dealer with the box fitted but if removed it leaves no trace so no issue there.

I have not sold one yet to anyone with Punto Tjet only to Bravo Tjet 120 and 150 and 500 Abarth and Punto Abarth and SS. Most of those who bought them will never post publically to announce it, thats why they bought a box in the first place.

Cheers

 

[+1.]

You could also have your warranty void if you went to the dealer with the box fitted but if removed it leaves no trace so no issue there.

I have no problems with your product however.....

This is still fraud :bang:

I would say that this is negligent advice to be giving to your customers!!

 

[TMC Motorsport]

I have no problems with your product however.....

This is still fraud :bang:

I would say that this is negligent advice to be giving to your customers!!

There is no fraud involved if they are just going in for routine servicing. The case may be different if they were trying to claim under warranty for a turbo or engine or gearbox, but for routine servicing i'm sorry I disagree with you. My advice is not negligent.

Can you explain to me how its fraud to have a tuning box fitted to your car and remove it? Fraud means illegal. Check the law I think you'll find your wrong. I can't recall ever seeing it stated anywhere that you are breaking the law/committing fraud by fitting a tuning box to your car and not telling the dealer.

As I said if you try to claim for a gearbox and you were aware that damage may be directly linked to an upgrade you had fitted then you may have an issue with the dealer not the law. It would be up to the dealer to prove that the upgrade was the direct cause.

With remapping you are altering/modifying the manufacturers original programming of the ECU/engine permanently, they now use flash counters to count each time you flash software in, wether they are within their rights to void your warranty based on additional flashes remains to be seen especially if you have not caused or tried to claim for any damage to the car. But I know of one owner who this has already happened to, warranty voided over additional flashes on the counter, he is now using legal means to fight it.

 

[Overbewst]

I just wanted to hear a review or two for the GPS T-Jet box, so when someone does get one of these, tell us on this thread ta!

If anyone cares, I want one so I can compete/try to comptete at Santa Pod and the rest..

Will all be insured and I don't see a problem if dealers don't mind you having a few track days then why would they mind if you stuck a box on for a few days a year?

From what I heard anyway, these boxes run within manufacturer safety margins so it's not like if I had a remap and the limits were exceeded and a turbo blew is it??

 

[adamcot]

Can you explain to me how its fraud to have a tuning box fitted to your car and remove it? Fraud means illegal. Check the law I think you'll find your wrong. I can't recall ever seeing it stated anywhere that you are breaking the law/committing fraud by fitting a tuning box to your car and not telling the dealer.

In you're original post (before editing) you were implying that for warranty work the box should be removed. This is the fraud, especially if the box has directly affected the part that has failed.

There are pleanty of people on this forum who have remaps, and have absolutely no trouble with servicing their cars at dealers, or infact any other garage, myself included. Im not sure why any dealer would have a problem with a modified car?

 

[TMC Motorsport]

In you're original post (before editing) you were implying that for warranty work the box should be removed. This is the fraud, especially if the box has directly affected the part that has failed.


There are pleanty of people on this forum who have remaps, and have absolutely no trouble with servicing their cars at dealers, or infact any other garage, myself included. Im not sure why any dealer would have a problem with a modified car?

Let me be clear Adam, firstly I have never in 10 years had anyone have a damaged car due to fitting of one of my boxes, I supply them to many main dealers. I recommend that people take the box off for any routine servicing or warranty work, warranty work can include fixing brakes, rattles and many other non engine related items, it is always better to remove any modifications before going to the dealer. I won't even get into a discusssion of my tuning box damaging a car as it has never happened. It runs within the engines set tolerances so there is no reason why it should or could cause damage. A remap can run beyond the set tolerances so it is fair to say if you increase beyond these there is a greater possibility of a component failure, although this also may never happen.


The same would apply for any means of tuning if its been proven to have caused damage to your car, you are again not commiting fraud but the dealer if they can prove your modification has caused damage would be within their rights to refuse to repair the car and void future warranty cover. As for dealers not having problems with modified cars well if you read various forums you'll see that comment is nonsense. Why are manufacturers spending millions adding software protection to all the latest ECUs if they have no problem with people remapping them?

But lets be clear its not illegal and your not gonna get led away in handcuffs!

 

[adamcot]

Let me be clear Adam, firstly I have never in 10 years had anyone have a damaged car due to fitting of one of my boxes

I am not suggesting you have at all. I have no problem with you're product, but I think you will agree the correct information needs to be given, as at the end of the day this is a public forum.

I recommend that people take the box off for any routine servicing or warranty work, warranty work can include fixing brakes, rattles and many other non engine related items, it is always better to remove any modifications before going to the dealer.

May I ask why? I always thought it was best to be upfront and honest when any work was taking place.

As for dealers not having problems with modified cars well if you read various forums you'll see that comment is nonsense.

I am not commenting on other manufacturers. I am speaking on my own experience, along with pleanty of others on here. If the dealer knows where they stand with the car, then I can't see there would be any issues, I know of at least three dealers local to me that have been willing to deal with my car as it stands.

But lets be clear its not illegal and your not gonna get led away in handcuffs!

If the fraud is large enough, then yes there is a potential to be arrested.

On another note, there is no need for the bold text

 

[TMC Motorsport]

I am not suggesting you have at all. I have no problem with you're product, but I think you will agree the correct information needs to be given, as at the end of the day this is a public forum.


May I ask why? I always thought it was best to be upfront and honest when any work was taking place.


I am not commenting on other manufacturers. I am speaking on my own experience, along with pleanty of others on here. If the dealer knows where they stand with the car, then I can't see there would be any issues, I know of at least three dealers local to me that have been willing to deal with my car as it stands.


If the fraud is large enough, then yes there is a potential to be arrested.

On another note, there is no need for the bold text

Some dealers are very strict about mods of any kind so to be safe (and it only takes 5 mins to take the box off) its better to remove it than have issues with the dealer. Many people don't if they have a good relationship with their dealership just as you have and thats fine. I just recommend that if the customer doesn't know anyone in their dealership to ask then the safe bet is to remove it.

I believe I am giving the correct information and am well aware this is a public forum.

As for the fraud your speculating over something that has not happened so its not worth commenting on.

I note you missed out on answering the reply regarding manufacturers spending millions putting software protection on ECU's to stop remapping. If its not a concern to them then why would they do this?

I'll correct the bold

 

[Overbewst]

If you were to fit a GSR or anything else that may affect performance, one would argue that it may, say for the sake of argument.. be the cause of excessive wear on brakes or premature pad failure.
While this may not be the actual cause, it could be used as a free pass to void a brake warrenty.

As some dealers can be finnicky like this, if I were a manufacturer of any type of engine modification I'd also reccomend removing the mod just for this reason.

As for being arrested... no, you wouldn't

It looks like a legal grey area and that can't be argued, but at the end of the day you have a tuning box that's set to below the vehicle manufacturer maximum limits - and from what I have been told by TMC, cannot be made to exceed these limits.

 

[adamcot]

If you were to fit a GSR or anything else that may affect performance, one would argue that it may, say for the sake of argument.. be the cause of excessive wear on brakes or premature pad failure.
While this may not be the actual cause, it could be used as a free pass to void a brake warrenty.

Thats ok, warrenty doesn't cover brakes anyway

As some dealers can be finnicky like this, if I were a manufacturer of any type of engine modification I'd also reccomend removing the mod just for this reason.

As for being arrested... no, you wouldn't

It is possible if the fraud is large enough. My advice? Talk to the dealer before you do the modification and see where they stand, then you can make you're own mind up.

It looks like a legal grey area and that can't be argued,

I refer to the Fraud Act 2006 - Chapter 35:

3 Fraud by failing to disclose information
A person is in breach of this section if he-

• (a) dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, and

• (b) intends, by failing to disclose the information-

• • (i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

• • (ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

By failing to disclose the information regarding tuning of the car, you are in breach of this statute, particularly part B.

but at the end of the day you have a tuning box that's set to below the vehicle manufacturer maximum limits - and from what I have been told by TMC, cannot be made to exceed these limits.

The manufacturer doesn't tell TMC, or any other tuning company, the safe limits of their products. This is merely opinion, each car is different therefore this safe 20-30% may be good for some, not others. I would say its very conservative for the Mjet engine, but at the end of the day it is up to the owner to decide how far they want to go with tuning.

 

[Overbewst]

Thats ok, warrenty doesn't cover brakes anyway

It's not unheard of for a cover on premature brake failure.

It is possible if the fraud is large enough. My advice? Talk to the dealer before you do the modification and see where they stand, then you can make you're own mind up.


I refer to the Fraud Act 2006 - Chapter 35:

3 Fraud by failing to disclose information
A person is in breach of this section if he-

• (a) dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, and

• (b) intends, by failing to disclose the information-

• • (i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

• • (ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

By failing to disclose the information regarding tuning of the car, you are in breach of this statute, particularly part B.

I've tried and failed to see how any of these points affect the fitting of a tuning box;

a.) There is absolutely no legal duty to disclose any such information regarding tuning boxes or remaps to a dealership.

b.) You are in no way benefiting (in a legal perspective) from not disclosing information about a tuning box however, you would be causing a loss if the part had caused something to fail and was then fixed under warrenty.

The manufacturer doesn't tell TMC, or any other tuning company, the safe limits of their products. This is merely opinion, each car is different therefore this safe 20-30% may be good for some, not others. I would say its very conservative for the Mjet engine, but at the end of the day it is up to the owner to decide how far they want to go with tuning.

I'm sure TMC will clarify as to where he gets his safe figures from but as I'm aware, the GPS engine is the same engine as the Abarth so I'd imagine it would be acceptable to assume the margins are safe up to Abarth specs, minus the extra turbo boost

 

[adamcot]

I've tried and failed to see how any of these points affect the fitting of a tuning box;

a.) There is absolutely no legal duty to disclose any such information regarding tuning boxes or remaps to a dealership.

b.) You are in no way benefiting (in a legal perspective) from not disclosing information about a tuning box however, you would be causing a loss if the part had caused something to fail and was then fixed under warrenty.

They affect it, as you rightly point out, if you gain an advantage from non disclosure. If you go on that basis, as you pointed out above by illustrating the GSR = greater brake wear, you can argue that you are gaining an advantage from the warranty if any part fails. If a part fails that is affected by the tuning box, you are in the same circumstance as if it was remapped, there is no change.

Im not sure where TMC gets his numbers from, but from what I understand, these figures are generic across his whole product range.

As I said, I think it would be safer to talk to you're dealer about modifications. They will give you an answer which you can base you're purchasing decision on. I can understand why you think being able to take it off is a massive benefit, Im just trying to help make sure you understand the facts. In terms of the cars OE warranty, there is little difference to the tuning box and the remap.

 

[Overbewst]

They affect it, as you rightly point out, if you gain an advantage from non disclosure. If you go on that basis, as you pointed out above by illustrating the GSR = greater brake wear, you can argue that you are gaining an advantage from the warranty if any part fails.

Exactly, you're quite right stating that it is legally an unfair advantage if one were to have had a vehicle fixed via warrenty due to fitting any kind of modification, and then to claim having no knowledge of any outside factors. However in my statement about the GSR being the automatic cause of damage to brake wear, it is a complete farse..
The point I am making is that it would be perfectly legal to use a tuning box as long as one never tried to claim anything that would be an obvious result of engine modifications that were unknown to the dealer.

This is exactly what I'm saying,
If a part fails that is affected by the tuning box, you are in the same circumstance as if it was remapped, there is no change.

Yes, if a part fails, due to extra stress on the engine..
In the application I stated it would be used for was rare trips, possibly bi-annually, when the box would be fitted - and being as the tuning box can be removed, it wouldn't be on my on-road policy - but I would be able to fit it whilst I'm covered on my track policy.
If I had a remap instead it would be a permenant engine modification and therefore would have to be on my main road insurance policy.


Being as it would seldom be fitted to the car, the possibility of causing damage would be miniscule which is why I'm even considering it.
Thank you for the concern but If there was any problem with the car if I did get the box, I'd only be able to hold myself responsible.

 

[+1.]

You are right TMC that if you take it off for a service only thats not fraud as your paying for the work to be done no problems with that and wasnt worried about that. If it was going in for a service anyway I do not know why you would need to take it off in the first place. However, taking it off as you want a warrenty claim on a part that maybe effected by the moddification does cause a problem. If you dont like the word fraud, trying looking up deception.

Whether it be a remap or a tuning box it will void your warrenty as you are changing from the maunfactures specification, same as adding lowering spring, however, knowing taking the car in for a problem with a part that is effected by the modification and taking that modification off so the dealers do not know, is fraud and or dececption.

If it was as clear cut as you say that they have to prove the fault not caused by the modification and thats as easy as implied, why do you need to advice your clients to take it off before going to a dealer.

At the end of the day you modify your car, which is your choice, you have to deal with the voided warrenty on those parts. If you have a good dealer,as Adam as stated before, and there is a few that dont mind claims on warrenty with the modification thats their choice.

I do stand by my original opinion that you are negligent in you advice by telling people that if you remove the box it does not void your warrenty as the dealers will never know its there.

You should be saying, this part does effect you warrenty on parts that it effect as you are changing from manufactors specification. The same as a remap. The only difference is that you can remove the bax at your leisure, unlike a remap.

 

[TMC Motorsport]

They affect it, as you rightly point out, if you gain an advantage from non disclosure. If you go on that basis, as you pointed out above by illustrating the GSR = greater brake wear, you can argue that you are gaining an advantage from the warranty if any part fails. If a part fails that is affected by the tuning box, you are in the same circumstance as if it was remapped, there is no change.

Im not sure where TMC gets his numbers from, but from what I understand, these figures are generic across his whole product range.

As I said, I think it would be safer to talk to you're dealer about modifications. They will give you an answer which you can base you're purchasing decision on. I can understand why you think being able to take it off is a massive benefit, Im just trying to help make sure you understand the facts. In terms of the cars OE warranty, there is little difference to the tuning box and the remap.

Simple answer to your question Adam, each manufacturer puts in place limits electronically programmed into the ECU for fuelling, boost pressure, torque, top speed etc etc When you remap a car you can remove these limits in the programming/map to allow the engine to perform past these limits, you can also raise them in a remap.

The limits are put there for a reason because the manufacturer feels that this is the highest tolerance the standard engine should be running to otherwise why would they put them in at all?
You can't do that with a tuning box, it works within these limits. The limits may be different on every make but the fact remains that we have to work within them or the engine would go into limp mode so we can't physically increase power beyond these set limits but with a remap you can.

The problem with everything you are saying Adam is that its based on pure speculation, unless you have a case in fact to show us then I don't see its worth discussing any further, your points are all based on if if if.

I am simply suggesting to my customers who have a tuning box fitted that it is better to remove it before servicing or warranty work since it only takes 5 mins to remove and servicing is usually only once a year its not really a hassle. If they have spoken to the garage before hand and they don't have an issue then thats fine. Speculating about what might happen if is not really something I want to spend any more time on.

The remap flash counter is not an if thats a fact, all new or nearly new cars have them and dealers have voided warrantys on cars that have additional flashes.

I am not for a moment suggesting anyone should try to mislead their dealer over warranty claims. Problem is as we have seen from another post by an Australian member who took his car in for engine management light reset which many members commented on being related to a brake or clutch pedal switch issue and the garage told him they charge him do a reset again because he had a tuning box fitted. So there is a perfect example of the tuning kit having nothing to do with the problem but getting the blame, its an easy excuse out for many garages hence why I suggest removing it beforehand.

 

[adamcot]

The problem with everything you are saying Adam is that its based on pure speculation, unless you have a case in fact to show us then I don't see its worth discussing any further, your points are all based on if if if.

I realise this, but if I was them, I wouldn't run the risk of a problem.

This is getting boring now. I have stated loads of times that I have no problem with you're product. It is down to the owner of the car to decide what they want to do. All I want to do is establish all the facts, which are if you modify you're car within the OE warranty, with whichever product, you run the risk of voiding it. You're products, or any tuning product, is not exempt from this.

 

[TMC Motorsport]

You are right TMC that if you take it off for a service only thats not fraud as your paying for the work to be done no problems with that and wasnt worried about that. If it was going in for a service anyway I do not know why you would need to take it off in the first place. However, taking it off as you want a warrenty claim on a part that maybe effected by the moddification does cause a problem. If you dont like the word fraud, trying looking up deception.

Whether it be a remap or a tuning box it will void your warrenty as you are changing from the maunfactures specification, same as adding lowering spring, however, knowing taking the car in for a problem with a part that is effected by the modification and taking that modification off so the dealers do not know, is fraud and or dececption.

If it was as clear cut as you say that they have to prove the fault not caused by the modification and thats as easy as implied, why do you need to advice your clients to take it off before going to a dealer.

At the end of the day you modify your car, which is your choice, you have to deal with the voided warrenty on those parts. If you have a good dealer,as Adam as stated before, and there is a few that dont mind claims on warrenty with the modification thats their choice.

I do stand by my original opinion that you are negligent in you advice by telling people that if you remove the box it does not void your warrenty as the dealers will never know its there.

You should be saying, this part does effect you warrenty on parts that it effect as you are changing from manufactors specification. The same as a remap. The only difference is that you can remove the bax at your leisure, unlike a remap.

Again this is all speculation, if you can show me a case where one of my tuning boxes has caused damage then I will deal with that. Having a tuning box fitted does not automatically invalidate your warranty, many manufacturers use them and produce them to sell through their parts departments. I am also as I have stated here several times not suggesting that anyone try to mislead a dealer on a warranty claim.

The remap is a different issue because you are permanently altering the programming and limitations set into the ECU by the manufacturer to make the components of the engine perform beyond the original set parameters and limitations set into the ECU. The tuning box does not permanently alter anything.