Technical Timing chain noise

[OSavoyard8]

I own a 2010 Ducato 3.0-liter X250 with 180 000 kms.

When starting from cold, I hear a noise from the timing chain for about 2 to 3 seconds, which I think is the time it takes for the oil pressure to build up and act on the hydraulic tensioners.

My questions: Is this normal, and is it an emergency? What could be the problem, and what are the solutions?

Thank you for your reply.

Eric

 

[bugsymike]

I own a 2010 Ducato 3.0-liter X250 with 180 000 kms.

When starting from cold, I hear a noise from the timing chain for about 2 to 3 seconds, which I think is the time it takes for the oil pressure to build up and act on the hydraulic tensioners.

My questions: Is this normal, and is it an emergency? What could be the problem, and what are the solutions?

Thank you for your reply.

Eric

I don't know a lot about the later Ducato engines , but I always hate it if timing chain rattles from cold as it means it is slack even though hydraulic tensioner takes that slack up when oil gets around.
I would take it as an earlier warning of impending expense. At least with a chain you get the early warning, unlike a cambelt that just breaks.
On some vehicles slack in the timing chain can throw up error codes as there is a discrepancy between the crankshaft sensor and the camshaft sensor.

 

[Kahcorp]

If you shut it down then restart just about straight away does it still make the noise.

If noise is still there then as a rule of thumb you have a worn guide or guides which is not uncommon on chain drives with that amount of km.

Other guide test is to power on down the road then off pedal. Do you hear rattle? If not then as the pressure is up & only happens while pressure is building then oil is where you are looking.
Are you using a Quality & correct Oil Filter. Are you using correct oil. Are oil changes 10,000km or 45,000km (they scares me)

In saying that the Ducato guides are very good & the ones I have seen at 250 + km could probably go another 50,000km.
I always do a sample jar & check bottom of drain pan when dropping oil to inspect for impurities. The oil can tell a lot of stories.
Bits from a guide can gradually block an oil pick up.

 

[OSavoyard8]

Thank you very much your answers and I take note.
I make regular drain every 15,000 km with quality synthesis oil, quality oil filter too.
I bought this truck at 130,000 km but I had not noticed this noise when I got it.
I will put the cache to see what's going on behind and check the tensioners first.
Case to follow ...

 

[bugsymike]

I am guessing a new clutch will go in?
Not being funny but when I zoomed in on photo I saw a couple of the clutch fingers are not rusty from contact with release bearing so presumably bent back @ 10-11 Oclock.
Any chance Dual Mass Flywheel rattling?

 

[OSavoyard8]

Yes, absolutely, the clutch will be new, as will the flywheel.
I took all that apart because I had significant vibrations in the clutch pedal at start-up and then throughout the truck when accelerating and decelerating.
And for the past two years, I've had gear noises in the transmission, 3rd and 4th gears. It must be said that I always drive fully loaded and also with an 800-kilo trailer behind, which makes the total weight 4,500 kg! I'm doing a standard gearbox swap.
To talk about the noise at cold start, my auditory memory is failing me! It's not a timing chain noise, but a clicking sound caused by the hydraulic valve lifters!! It's not the same thing at all!
I use 5W30 oil; maybe using a thicker oil when cold would solve this problem?
What do you think?

 

[bugsymike]

Yes, absolutely, the clutch will be new, as will the flywheel.
I took all that apart because I had significant vibrations in the clutch pedal at start-up and then throughout the truck when accelerating and decelerating.
And for the past two years, I've had gear noises in the transmission, 3rd and 4th gears. It must be said that I always drive fully loaded and also with an 800-kilo trailer behind, which makes the total weight 4,500 kg! I'm doing a standard gearbox swap.
To talk about the noise at cold start, my auditory memory is failing me! It's not a timing chain noise, but a clicking sound caused by the hydraulic valve lifters!! It's not the same thing at all!
I use 5W30 oil; maybe using a thicker oil when cold would solve this problem?
What do you think?

Good about clutch and DMF with all that loading.
Sounds like it need new hydraulic lifters, if engine was still in I would have tried engine flush first more in hope than expectation in case dirt blocking valves in lifters.
Good/new hydraulic lifters will hold oil and self adjuster better.
I often read about people rebuilding cylinder heads and engine tapping because they carefully degrease the lifters washing all the oil out.
If I am working on those I keep them in the order they came out of engine (unless replacing) and leave them soaking in engine oil prior to fitting, the same with new ones.
Does clicking stop as soon as oil light goes out?

 

[OSavoyard8]

Unfortunately, I didn't notice if the clicking noise stopped at the same time as the oil pressure warning light.
On cold starts, this clicking noise lasts about 2 seconds, and then the noise doesn't start again with subsequent stops and starts.
So, I'm not too worried.

 

[OSavoyard8]

I thought about changing the hydraulic tappets but the cost put me off a bit, around 25 euros per tappet, X16, or 400 euros. And then you have to remove the camshafts and I don't want to touch the pulleys, chain...

 

[bugsymike]

I thought about changing the hydraulic tappets but the cost put me off a bit, around 25 euros per tappet, X16, or 400 euros. And then you have to remove the camshafts and I don't want to touch the pulleys, chain...

I suppose as long as they go quiet then they are working although a bit slow to begin.
Is the a valve in the oil filter as that can cause slow pressure build up if a cheap filter make, or is your filter a paper element?

 

[Kahcorp]

You may find that the early pressure is from a small amount of blockage from many parts. I have had excess sealer being a problem on oil pick up. A lot of later model vehicles don't use a sump gasket so some people think the more sealer the better without thinking where it goes on the inside.
When removing your clutch could you please check your flywheel for movement by rocking it. Also measure the the free play & are there any heat spots. I also measure clutch thickness along with miles (km) it's done & check for cracks.
This is just for my interest as I keep track of them as this info could come in handy one day.
I have come across a clutch plate with cracks & also one broken. Both these have been on low km motorhomes but older in years so they have been sitting still for long periods.
I believe its best to use it. The most I have seen on a 3.0l manual is 610,000km (still going) used in Aus as an escort vehicle for oversized loads.
New clutch thickness 10.4mm
250,000km (156,000miles) 8.6mm thick - Flywheel freeplay 18mm
Broken plate 97,000miles 8.5mm thick - Flywheel freeplay 22mm

 

[OSavoyard8]

Hello, and thank you for your reply.
Unfortunately, I don't visit the forum often, and in the meantime, I threw away the old parts and didn't take any measurements.
I only remember the flywheel, which had a rotation of over 100mm! It was completely dead, and it was the one causing the severe vibrations.
Now everything is reassembled, and with the standard gearbox replacement, it's very pleasant to drive again.
However, I have another problem; let me explain:
For about 2 or 3 years, the idle has been unstable and the pollution was borderline. While the engine was out of the truck, I took the opportunity to give it a good overhaul. Cleaning the catalytic converter and particulate filter, the EGR valve, the intake manifold, which was VERY dirty, the intake ducts, the throttle body...
I replaced the intake pressure sensor (which was completely clogged!), the fuel pressure sensor, and the glow plugs, and despite this, the idle is still unstable and it smokes white, and it smokes black when accelerating.
By disconnecting the air flow meter, everything is perfect again: idle speed and no more smoke!
So I replaced the air flow meter, thinking it was coming from this part, but with the new one, it's exactly the same!
If you have any ideas for checking or any leads, I'd love to hear them.
Thanks in advance.
Eric

 

[Kahcorp]

Boost control solenoid issue or vacuum leak to or from this is often the cause of those symptoms.

I have only had a flywheel up to 45mm movement & it was a pig to drive. It was so smooth & quiet when replaced.

 

[bugsymike]

I assumed 100mm at flywheel was a mis quote, 4 inches seems amazing.
Diesels with white smoke and smell of diesel, at idle generally was unburnt fuel due to very cold weather/low compression/duff heater plugs,etc.
DPF if fitted can be a cause of very pungent choking white smoke, if blocked and computer is trying to do a REGEN. I had a 2012 Citroen C3 Picasso 1.6 diesel with 220k miles that was doing that, luckily I was able to remove and thoroughly clean it, use a Snap On Diagnostic tool to tell ECU a new DPF had been fitted and it ran happily for another four years before I finally replaced the DPF.
However you say yours has a particulate filter only, so no pressure sensor pipes before of after the filter unit?
Black smoke under heavy load etc. is usually again strangely enough only partially burnt fuel, caused by either excess fuel or not enough oxygen to burn it. So too much fuel from the injection system on one side or not enough air/oxygen from the inlet side, blocked air filter/leaking intercooler or pipes/ worn turbo etc.
Are you able to get any accurate diagnostic codes from ECU?

 

[OSavoyard8]

Thanks for your thoughts, I'll look into it this weekend.It's surprising that disconnecting the air flow meter fixes everything! No more smoke, no more odor, and the idle is impeccable.
During the engine overhaul, I blocked the EGR valve by plugging the exhaust, and I emptied the particulate filter and the catalytic converter. The lambda sensor upstream of the catalytic converter is new. I may need to notify the ECU that the catalytic converter and the lambda sensor have been replaced.

 

[Kahcorp]

If you have fitted a blanking plate to the EGR then there is your problem.
I have not had problems with EGR on these 3.0l models but we do long trips here.

 

[bugsymike]

When air flow meter is disconnected the ECU probably uses a pre loaded "base setting" as a sort of get you home position for when a sensor fails.