Technical timing belt replaced

[yann]

Hi, as title, I did my wife's vvti 500 this weekend.
also changed the plastic stubbed thermo housing for a factor one (pre emptive)
I have always used gates belts but my local factor has switched to dayco...so thought i would go ahead with that.
No issues after the job, no eml at any speeds and a combination of town and motorway conditions.
However, I deviated from the correct' installation method somewhat.(in my defence I have however fitted a lot of timing belts-but only non vvvti on the 500).
I used the latest info from a friends online autodata,plus elearn fiat..both were very similair but neither stated to slacken the cam pulley.I didn't have a cam locker, just the crank one from my tool box
so my plastic cam cover stayed where it was.
I locked crank, marked pulleys using a straight edge across teeth, then marked belt before removal, then i transferred marks to new belt& fitted it exactly as the old one.Tensioned tensioner to max then removed crank lock & rotated twice where everything lined up perfectly..(using the crank lock).
removed crank lock, detensioned belt correctly, said a prayer, started it up-everything fine! happy days!
I do have the facility for phonic relearn etc. but haven't bothered (yet)
hth Yann

 

[bugsymike]

Hi, as title, I did my wife's vvti 500 this weekend.
also changed the plastic stubbed thermo housing for a factor one (pre emptive)
I have always used gates belts but my local factor has switched to dayco...so thought i would go ahead with that.
No issues after the job, no eml at any speeds and a combination of town and motorway conditions.
However, I deviated from the correct' installation method somewhat.(in my defence I have however fitted a lot of timing belts-but only non vvvti on the 500).
I used the latest info from a friends online autodata,plus elearn fiat..both were very similair but neither stated to slacken the cam pulley.I didn't have a cam locker, just the crank one from my tool box
so my plastic cam cover stayed where it was.
I locked crank, marked pulleys using a straight edge across teeth, then marked belt before removal, then i transferred marks to new belt& fitted it exactly as the old one.Tensioned tensioner to max then removed crank lock & rotated twice where everything lined up perfectly..(using the crank lock).
removed crank lock, detensioned belt correctly, said a prayer, started it up-everything fine! happy days!
I do have the facility for phonic relearn etc. but haven't bothered (yet)
hth Yann

Fingers crossed.

 

[steveras57]

To be honest id say if it right from first start up, then its right!- if the timings out then the symptoms are gonna show straight away!( Unless ya keep aFiat gremlin as a pet ) as many of us do! reckon you've cracked it time for a beer!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Hi, as title, I did my wife's vvti 500 this weekend.
also changed the plastic stubbed thermo housing for a factor one (pre emptive)
I have always used gates belts but my local factor has switched to dayco...so thought i would go ahead with that.
No issues after the job, no eml at any speeds and a combination of town and motorway conditions.
However, I deviated from the correct' installation method somewhat.(in my defence I have however fitted a lot of timing belts-but only non vvvti on the 500).
I used the latest info from a friends online autodata,plus elearn fiat..both were very similair but neither stated to slacken the cam pulley.I didn't have a cam locker, just the crank one from my tool box
so my plastic cam cover stayed where it was.
I locked crank, marked pulleys using a straight edge across teeth, then marked belt before removal, then i transferred marks to new belt& fitted it exactly as the old one.Tensioned tensioner to max then removed crank lock & rotated twice where everything lined up perfectly..(using the crank lock).
removed crank lock, detensioned belt correctly, said a prayer, started it up-everything fine! happy days!
I do have the facility for phonic relearn etc. but haven't bothered (yet)
hth Yann

To be honest id say if it right from first start up, then its right!- if the timings out then the symptoms are gonna show straight away!( Unless ya keep aFiat gremlin as a pet ) as many of us do! reckon you've cracked it time for a beer!

Hallelujah! Exactly how I do them! Done a number of these over the years simply by marking up the pulleys and belt, transferring the belt marks to the new belt and lining them up with the marks made on the pulleys. No lights on dashboard and not yet had one which needed a proxy alignment. If the timing is out the dash light usually won't come on until you take it for a longer drive at higher speeds - a couple of times round the block doesn't tend to light them up.

Of course, using this method, you don't know if the cam pulley is locked to the cam in the correct position. Only using the locking tools will verify that. I have the locking tools so, if it's an engine not known to me, I take the cam cover off and install the locking tools before removing the old belt. If it all lines up then happy days, I just mark the belts and pulleys and proceed without slackening the cam pulley retaining bolt. If the timing is out then I'd have to slacken the cam pulley retaining bolt and do the job in the recommended way. Have to say, I've not yet run into one which didn't line up, which is why I've never had to slacken that, very tight, cam pulley bolt. I believe that these belts are made to such tight specs that they are substantially all identical so fitting a belt of a different make to the one which comes off makes no material difference to timing. I've removed a genuine Fiat belt and replaced it with a Gates, or Dayco, or whatever - although Gates is my preferred brand - and never had a problem.

 

[Eltezz]

I used exactly this method on my granddaughters Panda with no problems at all. I agree with Jock, the make of belt/tensioner makes no difference. In the case of her car I used an SKF kit which is my preference. You just need to make sure the belt run from the crank > water pump > camshaft is properly tensioned with no play and all your marks line up again.

All assuming the belt hasn’t already snapped or jumped a tooth, of course. In which case, different kettle of fish…

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I have a wee theory of my own about why some people find they have the light coming on after a belt change. As I said above, I've done a number of these now. They have all ran absolutely fine, just as they were before the change, with no light and thus I concluded, no need to do the Phonic wheel relearn. The two cars which I've had most chance to monitor in this respect are our own 169 non VVT Panda and my boy's 2012 1,4 8 valve with VVT Punto. Both cars were done by first checking the timing was correct before starting to remove the old belt - which they were - and then proceeding by marking up the pulleys and belt etc without slackening the cam pulley bolt. Both cars ran exactly as they had before the change with no detectable change in performance, fuel consumption or coolant temperature. So I can confidently say I was happy not to have done the relearn. The small number of others I've done were before I owned my MES and I didn't know about this problem as I never ran into it. It was through the forum that I became aware. I've said before that I conducted a "straw poll" of our local main dealer and several of the small local garages, including our local wee Fiat indy and all, with the exception of the main dealer, said they do belts by the "tippex" method - In fact the Fiat indy was the only one who had heard of a Phonic Wheel Relearn and they are doing Fiats, Fords, etc - which use this engine of course - frequently. The main dealer reception I spoke with was a bit evasive, saying they would, of course, do it by the method recommended by Fiat. So I assume that they probably do it with the locking tools and loosening the cam pulley bolt.

As I say, I've never had to slacken this bolt on one yet and I do wonder how easy it is to hold the camshaft precisely enough when retightening it, to stop it's position relative to the pulley, from moving as you tighten the retaining bolt?

I suppose all I can really say is that the "tippex" method has worked just fine for me up to now!

Hmm? With many modern engines now using keyless pulleys - The EA 211 VAG range of engines like the one in my old Ibiza and now my Scala - have keyless designs of pulley on both cam pulleys (DOHC of course) and crank pulley I now find myself having a possibly "dangerous" thought. If all these belts are, to all intents and purposes, identical regarding dimensions, then I don't see why all belts couldn't be changed using the "tippex" method? ie, without slackening the pulleys? I now await the avalanche of outrage at this "stupid" idea

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I have a wee theory of my own about why some people find they have the light coming on after a belt change. As I said above, I've done a number of these now. They have all ran absolutely fine, just as they were before the change, with no light and thus I concluded, no need to do the Phonic wheel relearn. The two cars which I've had most chance to monitor in this respect are our own 169 non VVT Panda and my boy's 2012 1,4 8 valve with VVT Punto. Both cars were done by first checking the timing was correct before starting to remove the old belt - which they were - and then proceeding by marking up the pulleys and belt etc without slackening the cam pulley bolt. Both cars ran exactly as they had before the change with no detectable change in performance, fuel consumption or coolant temperature. So I can confidently say I was happy not to have done the relearn. The small number of others I've done were before I owned my MES and I didn't know about this problem as I never ran into it. It was through the forum that I became aware. I've said before that I conducted a "straw poll" of our local main dealer and several of the small local garages, including our local wee Fiat indy and all, with the exception of the main dealer, said they do belts by the "tippex" method - In fact the Fiat indy was the only one who had heard of a Phonic Wheel Relearn and they are doing Fiats, Fords, etc - which use this engine of course - frequently. The main dealer reception I spoke with was a bit evasive, saying they would, of course, do it by the method recommended by Fiat. So I assume that they probably do it with the locking tools and loosening the cam pulley bolt.

As I say, I've never had to slacken this bolt on one yet and I do wonder how easy it is to hold the camshaft precisely enough when retightening it, to stop it's position relative to the pulley, from moving as you tighten the retaining bolt?

I suppose all I can really say is that the "tippex" method has worked just fine for me up to now!

Hmm? With many modern engines now using keyless pulleys - The EA 211 VAG range of engines (like the one in my old Ibiza and now my Scala - have keyless designs of pulley on both cam pulleys (DOHC of course) and crank pulley I now find myself having a possibly "dangerous" thought. If all these belts are, to all intents and purposes, identical regarding dimensions, then I don't see why all belts couldn't be changed using the "tippex" method? ie, without slackening the pulleys? I now await the avalanche of outrage at this "stupid" idea

Just realized I didn't actually define what my "theory" is, did I? Well, it's this. I think it is practically impossible, if you go the "loosening the cam pulley bolt" route, to ensure it's retightened with the pulley in exactly the same position, relative to the cam itself, as it was before. Therefore if you slacken the cam pulley bolt I think you can pretty much guarantee you are going to need to do a relearn. It's going to be damned close, but not exactly, precisely, the same. which I think is also why it usually takes a decent run before the light illuminates - ie the difference in position is marginal so it takes a wee while for the ECU to get "excited" enough about the difference to log it and turn the light on (well, make it flash actually).

 

[bugsymike]

Just realized I didn't actually define what my "theory" is, did I? Well, it's this. I think it is practically impossible, if you go the "loosening the cam pulley bolt" route, to ensure it's retightened with the pulley in exactly the same position, relative to the cam itself, as it was before. Therefore if you slacken the cam pulley bolt I think you can pretty much guarantee you are going to need to do a relearn. It's going to be damned close, but not exactly, precisely, the same. which I think is also why it usually takes a decent run before the light illuminates - ie the difference in position is marginal so it takes a wee while for the ECU to get "excited" enough about the difference to log it and turn the light on (well, make it flash actually).

I am just glad I retired before all this over complicated stuff came in, cars ran perfectly well before all that.
These days every different job on each different make of vehicle requires more expensive new tools to fix that, often you will only use them on the odd occasion so no chance of them "paying for themselves".
I recall going to a "Mechanix Show" watching a demo on setting up a dual clutch gearbox on a VW, the kit to do the job was then approx. £2k, so the chance of me ever recouping the outlay was minimal especially when by the time those models filtered down to my customers the cost of the clutch job would exceed the cars value!
Long gone are the days when I could fit a Borg and Beck clutch kit with a decent warranty and the customer could drive away for under £150 all in including Vat.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

These days every different job on each different make of vehicle requires more expensive new tools to fix that, often you will only use them on the odd occasion so no chance of them "paying for themselves".
I recall going to a "Mechanix Show" watching a demo on setting up a dual clutch gearbox on a VW, the kit to do the job was then approx. £2k, so the chance of me ever recouping the outlay was minimal especially when by the time those models filtered down to my customers the cost of the clutch job would exceed the cars value!
Long gone are the days when I could fit a Borg and Beck clutch kit with a decent warranty and the customer could drive away for under £150 all in including Vat.

The last belt kit I bought from my local factor, I was served by a new member of staff who didn't know me. He asked if I was in the trade. I assumed it was to figure out what discount he was going to give me and was about to answer when the boss came out of his back office and told him to treat me as trade. I thanked him very much and we had a wee "catch up" chat (my younger lad used to do all their signage before they were bought out by one of the big factoring groups who now do their own corporate signage) I've been using them for years. I have a good friendly relationship with them and he mentioned that they now keep a good selection of engine locking tool kits which can be hired, to the trade only, at very reasonable cost and did I want one for the FIAT? Got mu own so thank you, but I'm just fine. However, with the cost of some of these locking kits I thought that was a very good idea and probably attracts repeat customers too?

 

[Eltezz]

Just thought I would add to this thread that I have just changed the timing belt, water pump and aux belt on my latest acquisition, the Fiat 500 S I recently bought. Again, I used an SKF kit. As before, I marked both crank and cam pulley and made sure the belt was tight on the upward run. Also made sure the belt was properly pre-tensioned before setting the final correct tension. Second belt under my belt, haha!

Car started straight away and I took it for an Italian tune up - perfect, no problems. I really don’t understand all this nonsense with phonic wheel and MES.

Just do the job properly in the first place.

 

[jackwhoo]

Hi all,
I too think loosening cam pulley bolt is a step too far for the experienced.
Please keep in mind; there is sufficient slack between the CRANK pulley bolt holes and the bolts to cause the need for a phonic wheel learn. Pay attention to getting the pip centred in the hole and it should be ok, if flashing mil the rev procedure to re-learn works.

Best

Jack

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Just thought I would add to this thread that I have just changed the timing belt, water pump and aux belt on my latest acquisition, the Fiat 500 S I recently bought. Again, I used an SKF kit. As before, I marked both crank and cam pulley and made sure the belt was tight on the upward run. Also made sure the belt was properly pre-tensioned before setting the final correct tension. Second belt under my belt, haha!

Car started straight away and I took it for an Italian tune up - perfect, no problems. I really don’t understand all this nonsense with phonic wheel and MES.

Just do the job properly in the first place.

Another one which seems to prove two of my theory points.

1. As long as the camshaft pulley is correctly timed to the camshaft itself there's no need to use a locking kit
and
2. If the cam pulley is not slackened in relation to the camshaft itself - ie, the securing bolt is not slackened - then a Phonic wheel relearn is most likely not going to be necessary.