General The Good News and the Bad News

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General The Good News and the Bad News

I've been doing a bit of digging with this problem..... Here's my theory....
I have discovered that cars these days have up to three bus systems, One High Speed CAN bus, One Low Speed CAN bus, and a LIN bus.

The High Speed CAN bus (1Mb/s+) is pretty much dedicated to the engine, which sounds logical considering all the hight speed decisions to be made and responded to.
The Low Speed CAN bus (40-125 kb/s) is for (IMO), things like ride handling, airbags (if 8x10-6s is fast enough), ABS, etc, i.e. the next level of importance/speed requirements.

I explored LIN bus because that was stamped on the alternator & the circuit diagram, and apparently is a single wire (but uses vehicle ground to complete a circuit) capable of between 1-20kb/s, and used typically for boot/doors/stuff open/closed, typically stuff that you wouldn't notice if it took an extra half second or so, to change switch a light on/off.

Now I believe that the alternator has a processor onboard the voltage regulator assembly, that expects a handshake signal on the LIN bus sent from the ECU, I guess to acknowledge communication maybe, and is then followed by regular bursts of approx ten pulses whose duty cycle represents the amount of current the alternator needs to output.

According to YT videos, I should be able to connect an oscilloscope to the LIN bus wire as the alternator, which will tell me:
A. There is no signal from the ECU.
B. There is a short circuit between the ECU and the Alternator.
C. The new Alternator is also faulty.
D. I'm barking up the wrong tree. :D

Can't connect an oscilloscope, because about a year ago, when I was having a tidy up, it was taking up valueable space on my workbech so I gave it to a friend, and anyway it was to big and cumbersome to be portable, and was one of the old CRT types with no storage. New one turns up after Xmas.....

Still charging every day at the mo' 🥳
 
I've been doing a bit of digging with this problem..... Here's my theory....
I have discovered that cars these days have up to three bus systems, One High Speed CAN bus, One Low Speed CAN bus, and a LIN bus.

The High Speed CAN bus (1Mb/s+) is pretty much dedicated to the engine, which sounds logical considering all the hight speed decisions to be made and responded to.
The Low Speed CAN bus (40-125 kb/s) is for (IMO), things like ride handling, airbags (if 8x10-6s is fast enough), ABS, etc, i.e. the next level of importance/speed requirements.

I explored LIN bus because that was stamped on the alternator & the circuit diagram, and apparently is a single wire (but uses vehicle ground to complete a circuit) capable of between 1-20kb/s, and used typically for boot/doors/stuff open/closed, typically stuff that you wouldn't notice if it took an extra half second or so, to change switch a light on/off.

Now I believe that the alternator has a processor onboard the voltage regulator assembly, that expects a handshake signal on the LIN bus sent from the ECU, I guess to acknowledge communication maybe, and is then followed by regular bursts of approx ten pulses whose duty cycle represents the amount of current the alternator needs to output.

According to YT videos, I should be able to connect an oscilloscope to the LIN bus wire as the alternator, which will tell me:
A. There is no signal from the ECU.
B. There is a short circuit between the ECU and the Alternator.
C. The new Alternator is also faulty.
D. I'm barking up the wrong tree. :D

Can't connect an oscilloscope, because about a year ago, when I was having a tidy up, it was taking up valueable space on my workbech so I gave it to a friend, and anyway it was to big and cumbersome to be portable, and was one of the old CRT types with no storage. New one turns up after Xmas.....

Still charging every day at the mo' 🥳
As i really like a good theory! myself i am looking forwards to the next instalment of this one!( even if the ultimate result is "buggered ecu!)
 
.... even if the ultimate result is "buggered ecu!...

Yep, who knows? I have got a spare, but not sure if it's any good. I'm gonna finish putting my new Cobra Exhausts on my motorbike over xmas, that way I'll have alternative transport (if it doesn't ice up or snow).

I have managed to upload & install a copy of my Salea Logic Analyser onto my old laptop, (have to dump everything else off to allow it to go on the 50Gb HD, only took 4 hrs :eek: I really need a new laptop) and will try to get a reading off the alternator LIN wire. I'm too impatient to wait till the middle of January, I need some info now :geek:
 
1997 Honda 750 Magna. Here's the pic that made me buy it....

161953437957071.jpg
 
Very nice! (y) lovely engine in these!:D bet the new exhausts will sound great!:unsure: are you planning on upgrading the fueling to compensate for the back-pressure difference!.🤨
 
The Engine turns into something else above 7K RPM, did a round trip encompassing, Bournemouth, Oxford, Stoke, the Lake District, and back to Kent bloody brilliant 😃

Yes, I have a new set of jets to go in, & tons of bling 😂
 
Hey, I see you foot plates, how do you get on with them?

So...I have not managed to check the LIN bus wire on the car yet BUT....

Saw these vids...
Peugeot No communication with alternator - LIN bus Fault & Waveform analysis. M&R Auto services 1.3K subscribers

and

VW Transporter (charging problem) LIN bus fault.

In another vid..

Testing Com & LIN type Alternators with JAS AD100 Computer Controlled Alternator Tester
This guy says
Hi P Mo You have mentioned that it is not charging, I would disconnect the small wire connection (LIN Plug) and give it a good rev, the alternator should self excite and charge at around 13.8 Volts. This will confirm that the alternator is working and not communicating with the car.
So I went out and tried it, and it worked. :love: 13.8V.
Still need to check the continuity on that wire....

I was familiar with 'self exciting' as I once drilled the fingers of the field windings, and put strong magnets in them to make a generator, that didn't need and external circuit.
 
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YOU ARE SLOWLY GETTING THERE WITH THE CAR (y)
As for the bike Footboards no problem for me had the dam thing 45 years now so just about getting the hang of it!😆 nice on longer trips as you can shuffle your feet around and change position to get comfy:rolleyes:! Along with a heel /toe gearchange linked brakes and shaft drive she keeps me interested!😝
 
Got the exhausts done yesterday 😂


...and my new oscilloscope turned up today, except the bloody weather is crap for the next week or so....

Because I am renovating my camper in my unit and it has taken all the available room, I have to put tarps up just outside the front roller shutter, but need low wind days to be able to do it 🤔

Went for a run in the car today (without the sensor wire connected at the battery) and after a while the warning triangle came on....
 

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them exhausts look neat!!! (y)
As for the warning triangle coming up!- surely that must mean that the system is missing the lin bus signal?:unsure: so the wires sound :rolleyes:and the problems in the ecu!:eek::mad:
 
....surely that must mean that the system is missing the lin bus signal?:unsure: so the wires sound :rolleyes:and the problems in the ecu!:eek::mad:
Well, I started looking at the circuit diagrams, trying to find the two sense wires from the battery terminal plug, and where they go to.
When I woke up... I watched a film. :ROFLMAO:

I'll have another look today. I can live with the light for now, as long as it is in fact charging, but am concerned about an upcoming MOT o_O (for which it needs to be off) and a remap at the end of the month. :eek:
 
So, looking throught ebay I spotted a negative terminal and cable, and it dawned on me, that the neg terminal could be the problem? as it charges fine when the sense plug is disconnected, and as soon as I plug it back in, it stops!

Having replaced the terminal (but not the cable, mine was better) I didn't see any improvement, so proceeded to connect the oscilloscope to the LIN wire/plug at the alternator.

This was more difficult than one would think, having contorted myself to get the plug off I realised that just poking a large probe in the plug would distort the shape, so I fashioned a gas welding rod by grinding it to a point, then flattening it with a hammer till it resembled the same shape and size of the male pin at the alternator. Worked a treat, and to insulate the welding rod from the chassis, I put a length of heatshrink on it.

Attached the signal wire crock clip which also held the heatshrink at the top of the rod, (and the gnd to the nice shiny alternator casing) to the scope and with no ignition was a flat line with a very little bit of noise, and with the ignition on, the expected square wave was observed. I then realised that this was with the sense plug at the negative battery terminal disconnected, so I plugged it in a checked again. This time the signal was a repetative pulse but at a much slower frequency!!

I did hit the 'save' button but as the apparatus was new to me, that wasn't the way to save it... oh well.

Really need to do it again, weather permitting.

Driving to and from work with the sense plug disconnected for now, and it charges fine, but after a few miles the warning triangle comes on as a message that you can't have start/stop.
 

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Well, Guess what? It's bloody working.

So the only thing I have changed since the alternator is the negative battery terminal, plus removed any error codes, and although it didn't seem to initially solve the issue. Today I drove to work, and nothing out of the ordinary, then on the way home, start/stop started working😁

So I'm assuming (I do a lot of that) that the trip to work charged the battery sufficiently to let the start/stop work.

Which now means It's all fit for the MOT on Friday ☺️
 
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