Tarby's (re)build thread (loads of piccies)

[tarbyonline]

Ok, so its been more than 2 years since I got "Lucia", my first car at 26. Over that time I have added my ICE as I got the cash and added bits of deadening and cabling as I went (and 2 new headunits, and 3 sets of speakers). I have decided that now I have got the time to re-do things so its all to a standard I am happy with - keeping the same equipment but improving the install (so not going to be anywhere near Paulbfd's Panda standard then). This thread is like my "blog" on the project, but all comments and suggestions are welcome. Pics are from my i-phone so prob not the highest quality. So, on with the project!

First some background info:

Car: Fiat Panda 1.1 Active, 2006

ICE Equipment at start of project:

Headunit: Alpine 9880
Front Speakers: Alpine SPS-171A Components
Rear Speakers: Alpine SXE-1725 Coaxials
Subwoofer: Vibe SQ8-Evo
Amplifier: Alpine MRP-T222 2x 50w RMS
Interconnects: Cheap RCA "unbranded" from 10 Awg and 8 Awg ebay wiring kits
Speaker mounts: Self made mdf baffles
Power cabling: 8Awg and 10 Awg ebay wiring kit stuff. Autoleads mini distribution block.
Speaker cable: A mix of stock speaker cable (which isnt too bad), the 22awg cable that came with Pioneer TS-1301i speakers, and allegedly 20awg OFC cable from ebay wiring ket (though I'm not convinced).
Deadening: Front 2 doors deadened with a mixture of dynamat extreme and silent coat 2mm and sealed with silent coat 2mm and yoga mat closed cell foam
Sound Isolation: b&q floor insulation in door cards.
Battery: Original 202 size 40 Amp 200CCA exide nearing the end of its life (just off the charger for the second time in a few months - alternator checked and working fine).
Battery positive: Original fit Fiat, past its best as loose on top of terminal and will not tighten

The plan

Front baffles: Redesign as mid-bass limited (I have some ideas on this to test)
Interconnects: Vibe FlatBass RCA Solid Core Interconnect to Alpine Amp, the better quality generic RCA to subwoofer
Speaker Cable: Stock cable from rear of HU to doors, Connects2 16 Awg frm amp to rear of HU and from door grommet to crossover and speakers.
Deadening: deaden and seal rear doors.
Power cable: Replace all 10 Awg cable with 8awg. Vibe Flatlines cable to be used for this.
Battery: Bosch S4 202 Battery, 42Ah 360CCA Maintenance free
Battery positive: Phonocar postitve battery clamp

So, is it worth replacing the existing generic 8awg cable from battery with the 8awg Flatlines stuff, or even 4awg (system only draws a max 50 amps going by the fuses on back of amps)?

 

[tarbyonline]

This is the baffle at the start of the project. Note the foam and duct tape to divert the sound into the cabin instead of behind the door card!



On this is the inner door skin. Note the crap speaker cable courtesy of pioneer - that wont be long going! The light blue is a closed cell foam courtesy of a yoga mat. Behind that lies silent coat on top of another layer of foam and duct tape in order to seal the door skin


This is the rear of the baffle.


And a closeup of the rear showing the very limited room for air movement behind the speaker. I have read that this can choke the sound. (link to follow)



As i do not have the equipment to modify this surround I decided to replace it entirely with the connects 2 adaptor I purchased originally to fit the speakers. This had already been thoroughly covered in dynamat extreme. But how to make it even less resonant???


Plasticine!!!! (or non-drying modelling clay as the yanks seem to call it)





and this is the finished product mounted to the door. Notice I have also started replacing the wiring

 

[tarbyonline]

Ok, I really need to get a life! Been reading around a lot of forums and discovered this:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/65061-improve-your-soundstage-%242.html

looks interesting, but is it practical. Perhaps I could mold more plasticine to make the adaptor more rounded.

Oh and the link I talked about earlier:

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/chamfer.htm

 

[volxstu]

Not a bad start Tarby. Im not sure about the playdough though. For all your efforts with it you would have been just as well with a bit of fibreglass paste.

As for the chamfer. We call what you were doing tunnelling. It is a relatively simply physics thing to do. If you have something behind the cone then it will be harder for the air path to Tunnel into the outlet available. If you shoot air rapidly towards a surface the air will inevitably bounce back and counteract the movement of the speakers motor.
A smooth free flowing air guide allows the speaker to play freely without any external forces as it was intended.

You are also spot on with wave diffusion.
http://www.skinzsystem.co.uk/3.html

 

[tarbyonline]

Not a bad start Tarby. Im not sure about the playdough though. For all your efforts with it you would have been just as well with a bit of fibreglass paste.

As for the chamfer. We call what you were doing tunnelling. It is a relatively simply physics thing to do. If you have something behind the cone then it will be harder for the air path to Tunnel into the outlet available. If you shoot air rapidly towards a surface the air will inevitably bounce back and counteract the movement of the speakers motor.
A smooth free flowing air guide allows the speaker to play freely without any external forces as it was intended.

You are also spot on with wave diffusion.
http://www.skinzsystem.co.uk/3.html

Fibreglass scares me lol! I already have some silent coat "eggbox" type foam behind there. Im thinking along the lines of fibreglass now but not sure how to go about it. Will also allow me to get a nice curve. Toying with the idea of taking a dremel to the MDF rings so they fit the adaptor as well. How difficult would it be to make a fibreglass adaptor from scratch and would it be "dead" enough. Guess I best spend the second night running lurking around the talkaudio forums!

On to todays progress

So the 8AWG or 4AWG debate was solved after I reserved this at halfords (just to get the rca and the flat speaker cable):

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/..._productId_723225_langId_-1_categoryId_165626

and instead was given this (and charged £19.99).

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/...er-_-Product_List_Zone_1-_-Blank&iozone=PLPz1

I wonder if they noticed me running out the door lol.

So it looks like im starting the cabling from scratch again!

The speaker terminals and fork crimps turned up from CAD today after being seperated in the post from the rest of the order due to the bank holiday (ordered through ebay and took advantage of the free shipping to avoid paying a shipping charge to NI). Must say, Im quite impressed with the quality of this phonocar stuff. I would put it above autoleads for example at much less cost!

Also received some neoprene "rope" to use as a gasket behind whatever speaker adaptor. It starts of being 0.8 cm in diameter but squeezes right down to a couple of mm under pressure. Cheaper than buying a decent tube of silicone (anyone tried the stuff in poundland btw?)

So, no work done in the car today apart from some adjustments made to the HU (plasticine is definitely doing its job and mid changed over to the connects 2/plasticine combo sounds tighter than the one still on mdf) as have been on puppy duty most of the day just finding enough time to nip down to maplins (for crimps and heatshrink) and Halfords.

But now everything is here, just need to dig out the pack of assorted grommets I have lost somewhere and decide finally what to do about the speaker adaptors.

Todays piccies are of todays additions:


and the 2 wiring kits that are going to make up my install now (still cant believe they only cost me 40 quid in total when the fast plug retails at £14.99 alone!):

 

[volxstu]

Fiberglass is just a bulker IMO. You aught to make the main base out of MDF (im afraid that isnt my expertise) and then seal and strengthen with Fibreglass.

This is what James did with mine.

 

[tarbyonline]

Hmm, think I will sleep on it as the work load is growing!!!!! Perhaps once everything else is done I will revisit the mounts.

Just spent the evening swearing at the alpine iso harness soldering everything on (eg aerial adaptor power lead). Why did I have to buy the cheapest Antex soldering iron I could find - I have to wait about 10 minutes between solders for the thing to heat up! Plus the heatshrink is a bit neat before it is shrank lol. Another visit to Maplin tomorrow me thinks, possibly after I go for a new exhaust system!

EDIT: Just ordered a new connects 2 facia as mine is the original (worse for wear) fiat one from the Blaupunkt cassette player. Also some Phonocar rainstop moisture guard. At least its pay day on Thursday (thanks Will and K8!)

 

[tarbyonline]

Day 4

Not much to report on apart from a new rear silencer and centre pipe costing me £115 (and that was the cheapest quote and using the 20% off voucher on the ATS website). Stopped of at Maplin (where there were at least 6 staff who where having great fun with a novelty megaphone thing and only 2 customers lol) for some silver solder, bigger heatshrink, and yellow crimps. Also went to Halfords for a draper 40w soldering iron (a bargain at £13.99). Again, more staff than customers and obviously talking about bodybuilding (lol) was more important than manning the collection desk so I got one myself and managed to pay at the checkout without the guy even speaking to or looking at me!

And they say customer service isn't dead!

So this evening will be spent soldering what I crimped last night and going to puppy class. Hopefully the facia will arrive tomorrow and I can get some real progress.

Anyone any ideas on where to get a grommet suitable for 4awg cable? The only ones maplin had are HUGE!

 

[volxstu]

is that a gas iron? i would like to know how it performs if so as i have a mobile job to do soon.

 

[tarbyonline]

is that a gas iron? i would like to know how it performs if so as i have a mobile job to do soon.

No, its an electric. However I do have a gas soldering iron and when it was new it was great. Its a bit dodgy now (bought for plumbing solder, also makes a handy mini blow torch!), and you cant use it near plastic as there is a breather whole at the side of the nib so that air can get in so any plastic in front of it melts (or in my case the carpet lol). Halfords have a draper gas iron for about £15 which is a lot smaller than mine. If you do get a gas iron only use proper blow torch gas not ciggy lighter stuff as mine was fine until I tried cig lighter gas.

Maplin do a battery powered soldering Iron which might be of use?

 

[volxstu]

Ahh im fairly confident that any gas one under £40 are pretty much useless. I knew you had one your not happy with so got all excited when you had replaced it with a silly cheap one that actually worked.
TBH its probably cheaper to get something like you have and get a cheap power inverter.

 

[tarbyonline]

Ahh im fairly confident that any gas one under £40 are pretty much useless. I knew you had one your not happy with so got all excited when you had replaced it with a silly cheap one that actually worked.
TBH its probably cheaper to get something like you have and get a cheap power inverter.

OK, quick update on this. I have managed to fix it as had a brainwave whilst typing my reply. I turned it on without lighting it and let the gas drain completely. Then filled it with "Newport - 100% pure butane gas". Suddenly its working perfectly again.

It was only a £15 Bernzomatic soldering iron from B&Q btw, and I was using it for thick high temp plumbing solder which i needed to melt almost instantly (it was for model steam engine boilers so has to melt the solder before heating the boiler or the whole thing would become unsafe and could blowup under pressure when in use) and it did the job perfectly so wouldnt be too concerned about getting a cheap gas iron. TBH I dont see how a more expensive one could be any better as the gas is going to be the limiting factor temperature wise. I would be more concerned about any nearby plastic trim tho!

If you do need an electric soldering iron I thoroughly recommend the 40w draper. Steer clear of the 25w Antex (altough mine was labelled as 30w on the box - part of a kit) as it couldnt melt butter!

 

[volxstu]

Hmm im surprised the inlet throws out so much hot air. I have used similar types as a trim knife in very tight spaces with no problems.
I have ordered some cheapo one to see if that will do the Job this one time until i can sort the money for an all singing and dancing one.

Thanks for the info though, i shall be going to B&Q if this one fails to work.

As for the Model steam do you use Hornby's Live Steam or make your own?

 

[tarbyonline]

I have Mamod and Wilesco engines. I used to buy them on ebay on the cheap and restore them to "as new". The oldest engine I have is from the mid sixties which I kept pretty original (peeling paint included) as it is rarer than most. I bought a Wilesco from Germany once on ebay (using my German from college lol) and stripped it bare and rebuilt it from the ground up which was very satisfying.

If you angle the outlet of the iron away from anything that might be affected by heat you should be grand. Just make sure you use good quality gas (not Swan or anything else from the ciggy counter at Tesco) as thats what "killed" mine.

Day 5

A wee bit of progress but I'm disappointed as I was hoping to finish today. Paid a visit to Euro Car Parts "Trade Counter" in Belfast for a new battery. I went all out and got a Bosch 063 S5 which was the highest capacity branded battery I could find which would physically fit. With over 2.5 times the starting power and 12aH more capacity than the unit it replaces it should more than cover my future power needs. It was also more than £20 cheaper than at Halfords and they had the rubber grommets I have been searching for which are a perfect fit for the 4awg cable.

After crossing the city via some ludicrous roadworks (I can definitely find some cuts!!!) it was after tea time so not much light left. Got the hole drilled for the 4AWG cable and the grommets fitted to the firewall to make sure it is all water tight and the cable doesnt get chaffed by any movement.

Top Tip for Noobs: The grommet needs to be a very tight fit to the cable in order to ensure it is as water proof as possible and also limit movement. A bit of vaseline on the grommet and at the start of the cable will make feeding it through much easier!

The cable is through the firewall and into the passenger footwell. The in-line fuse has been fitted and the end of the cable stripped ready to go into the phonocar positive terminal on the battery once the electrical wiring is complete. The cable to the fuse box is in the 4awg hole on the terminal so Im going to have to try and get the 4awg cable into the 8awg hole :/ .

In order to get access to the firewall to drill the whole the wiper arms and scuttle? under the windscreen have to be removed - a lot easier than it sounds as the scuttle is held on by 3 screws and the wipers by one bolt each. While this was off I took the opportunity to give it a thorough cleaning with AutoGlym Vinyl & Rubber care as it was looking a lot worse for wear. I also removed all the dead tree and plant bits and coated the front and rear with the excellent Autoglym bumper care.

Not being one to do anything by halves (as anyone keeping track of this thread will have realised) I then proceeded to clean all the black plastic and rubber in the engine bay using a cloth with vinyl and rubber car sprayed on it (including both sides of the grille, the airbox, top of all plugs, and all leads and cables), and the underside of the bonnet.

Having now gone into one of my "cleaning modes" I cleaned all the black plastic on the exterior the same way as the scuttle?, dressed the tyres, and cleaned all the windows. By this time it was dark.

Hopefully tomorrow the new facia will arrive. The plan regardless for tomorrow is to run the power cable down the passenger side to the distribution block, remove the centre trim around the handbrake in order to run the phono, remote, and speaker cables under the carpet, prepare the 8awg cable to become my new power socket power source, and hopefully refit the facia. Then on Saturday I should hopefully get the rear doors deadened, the passenger door speaker adaptor changed over, the last of the old speaker cable replaced, and all the crimps I can practically replace with soldered joints and heatshrink replaced.

On Sunday I have arranged to clean the 3 cars in the Family (mine, brothers GP, and parents Astra) and I plan to polish and seal the 2 Fiats so any further ICE work wont happen until Monday, meaning I need to get a move-on over the next 2 days!!!!

 

[tarbyonline]

Day 6

A very productive day! No Facia today as someone decided to get married so the postman apparently gets the day off lol! All cables are now routed properly, fuse is in and we have sound again! Unfortunately the phonos had to go down the left hand side with all the power cables as there was not enough room under the carpet down the centre unless I removed the seats etc to lift the carpet entirely. I wouldnt risk feeding them across to the drivers side as tbh there is no room really in the drivers footwell with all the mechanical gear there to make the car work. However the good news is that there is absolutely no interference at all. Speaker cables are running down the centre though and I would highy recommed the flat type to anyone.

So what does it sound like? Absolutely fantastic!!!! There is clarity and detail that wasnt there before and midbass is much improved - infact if it was this good a year ago I probably wouldn't have bothered with getting a sub.

Theres still a few things that need done, and the interior looks like the contents of a skip at the moment but all the cabling work is done and everything is working. Next I'm going to take a look at the rear door speakers and decide whether to bother with deadening or to use the material under the bonnet (theres no sound insulation on the active bonnet).

I also intend to rewire the 12v socket I installed running from the back of the headunit to run directly from the battery using the old 8awg amp cable. Need to nip down to maplin again though to get a relay so it turns off with the ignition. Might also order in the proper Fiat socket to wire in so it looks better as my next project is to make some interior improvements - have already ordered a new facia adaptor, moved my first aid kit, and fixed the warning triange to the back of the rear seat..

Will update later on with pics once I have had a sit down and a coffee as just in due to starting well after lunch after watching the wedding earlier.

 

[tarbyonline]

As promised, heres the pics:

Cables entering the firewall


all cables now routed behind stereo:


the hole where the stereo should be with cabling on the left and ISO loom on the right


snapshot of some of the cabling. All the stuff on the left is the new cable. The blue cable on the right is one of the cheap RCA's leads I have been using until today. The grey and brown cables are the new RCA's - quite a difference in size!


The old RCA and speaker cable underneath the central console

handbrake! You can just make out the earth and speaker cables around the centre of the pic

distribution block velcroed in place in a small recess under passenger seat. The amplifier is positioned direcly in front of this. Its like Fiat designed the car for this!

Will try get some more pics up tomorrow of the sub, fast-plug, and the amp as I tidy up and finish off the last of the install.

I have had to order a new aerial signal seperator (for those of you who dont know this attaches to the radio and supplies the 12v signal to the aerial that the blaupunkt unit does by default as aftermarket units dont supply this through the aerial lead. This means better AM rececption or in my case some AM reception!). I had noticed my radio reception was not as good as usual but put it down to a loose lead, however some fault finding isolated the seperator as the problem. It was an Autoleads part and some disassembley has shown me it is very poor quality - halfords charge £12 for this part. Was going to order a Celsus one to see if it lasts any better but they are retailing for £8+ wheras I was able to order another Autoleads one for £3 on ebay.

However, without the separator in I can now pick up radio from the Isle of Man lol.

 

[tarbyonline]

Some learning points from the install so far:
* always use the best quality cabling you can afford. I noticed a vast improvement between cheap generic RCA and speaker cable and branded premium. I could have spent a lot more but you need to draw a line somewhere.
* shop around! Even Halfords can be cheap for some things, eg the second vibe wiring kit and the soldering iron.
* speaking of soldering irons, 25w watt ones dont do much!
* Use the reserve and collect service at halfords. Not only does it save time and get you web pricing, but the sneaky staff hide stock so they can buy it themselves (like my bargain wiring kit, that particular branch had absolutely no vibe wiring kits on display and the staff member told me himself they hadn't put them out deliberately!).
* Ebay is your friend. Check a retailers ebay shop before ordering from their own website, it may work out cheaper.
* Just because you haven't heard of a brand doesnt mean its crap. I had never heard of phonocar but will be buying a lot more of their accessories.
* Flat speaker cable is the way forward for working under carpet. However, the soft insulation on the vibe cable I used had a tendancy to grip to anything rubber.
* Vibe flat 4awg cable is more of an off circle than flat! Its also a bugger to get through a round grommet even with vaseline as a result.
* Take your time and dont underestimate the time it takes to lay "a few cables"
* Listen to advice, but dont be afraid to try something different within reason.
* Make a note of what screws and nuts went where and keep them seperate - it will save you time later.
* Make sure you have a proper crimp tool, wire cutter, and wire stripper. I have a combined crimper, cutter, and stripper tool but found a £1.99 cable stripper from ebay priceless when dealing with thicker gauge cable: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280644021033&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
* Clean as you go and use the opportunity to clean areas you can't normally access such as bits of trim. Just dont get too carried away as I did!

Engine bay after I got "carried away"

 

[volxstu]

Looking like a good Job your doing

 

[tarbyonline]

Day (not to sure)

After a few days off the Facia adaptor has arrived. Must say im not impressed with the quality, its acceptable but is a bit tacky compared to the Fiat one. Will install tomorrow so I finally have everything back in place again. Looks like the silent coat originally intended for the rear doors (8 sheets) is going in either the bonnet, the hatch door, 3/4 panels or the floor pan above the front wheel arches.

Also got some 6mm MDF from B&Q (I know, V thin). The plan is to rebuild my speaker adaptors in MDF, layering up so as to create a similar shape to the OEM adaptors. Still have my 18mm rings for the top layer so it should be solid enough behind the main drivers.

Also received some moisture guarding foam from CAD today. Its another phonocar product (Rain Stop) and looks pretty decent to me. I will incorporate this into the new adaptors so as to protect the SPS-171a's. I will be sealing the MDF with PVA glue (also from B&Q) to prevent moisture breaking it up

 

[tarbyonline]

Thanks Stu. Im thinking what to do next now. I think I might just of got the ICE bug lol.