Tuning supercharged cinq

[allanhelen]

It's not doom and gloom it is more a case of wake up and smell the bacon.

The people giving there opinions have something you seem to lack, knowledge!
You obviously haven't got a clue what you are doing and how to even start going about it and don't seem to have any idea what is involved in adding forced induction to an engine that was not designed for it or how to keep then engine in one piece.

So far you've talked to a bloke that has fitted a supercharger and over various posts ignored people on here who have built custom engines, fitted turbo's, chargers, built custom ECU's and screwed unbelievable amounts of power out of engines that were never designed to take it.

I am sure you have also read that any cento running 130+ BHP have had a lot more done to them than have a hair-drier bolted onto them. On a 1.1 cento I was up to 1.3 bar of boost to get over 130 bhp with basically a custom built flowed engine so where the hell your charger guy gets 140+ bhp with 5psi on a stock motor I don't know, new and old mini engines are totally different animals to FIRE engines

There is nothing wrong with being different but at the moment you are just still coming across as yet another dreamer

 

[Brooky]

where you going to get this bigger injector from.

If i was you id be chopping up a mpi mani and making a plenum like fingers was on with ages ago

 

[MazCinq]

firstly i have not been ignoring what people have said as when some one said i needed a second injector i started looking into who i would go about it and how i would run it i am looking into stronger crank and where i would get one made and i have read about hoe people have gone about lowering compression and decided lower comp pistons but as yet cant find a supplier as for the injector the peugoet 1.4 8v engine in the 205 and 306 use exactly the same TB which is slightly bigger (32mm i think yet to measure it) i am looking into the difference in injectors as its black not orange and each style of injector is colour coded for easy identification of size not saying that is where i will get it from but its an idea i am not dismissing what people on here say just incorperating it in to what i am planning and seeing if there is an easier way or more efficent way of doing it but what bugs me is people saying that i am just another dreamer and this will never get start the fact of the matter is i am starting and fair enoght it may go the way of the charged punto but i will take what he learnt and try not to make the same mistakes although i think i will come across a whole load of new onesbut thats what happens when you try something new

 

[arc]

Some of them stems from a lot of threads where people are going to do x, y and z and then don't. I've heard rumours of another supercharged cinq but have never seen one. I'd love to see this one built, and will help out where I can. You do need to remember that a blokey supercharging a 1275cc A series engine does not necessarily have the same amount of understanding of the FIRE engines. There are people on here who do though.

I understand what is being said about the bigger injector. Normally fitting a larger injector (on a turbo conversion) will destroy the engines idle. But as a charger is always spinning, and always loading the engine - it will require more fuel/air to idle at the same RPM as it would do normally.

Someone who works on A series engines may prefer this as it is similar to simply fitting bigger jets into a carb. BUT cars have moved on since them things. And with ECUs it is not quite as simple.

The pressure in the inlet manifold is measured using a MAP sensor, on a cinq that will measure from atmospheric (1bar) to 0. If you give it any positive pressure, then the ECU will think it is faulty and get upset. You can get round this by using a 'fuel cut defender'

You mentioned using a different engine management. This is IMO the best idea. Do this, and use multiple injectors. Injecting closer to the port is better. Using an ECU such as megasquirt/emerald/dta will give you sequential injection and ignition control, and allow you to add a knock sensor.

Full control over each cylinder is a big plus when trying to extract silly power / stress an engine, and controlling an engine from a single point is easier than trying to fool sensors and compensate here, and there.

 

[MazCinq]

ok this fuel cut off defender where do i get one from also for this would it be better to change to an mpi set up so each cylinder has its own injector thus better fuel delivery or am i wrong on this the problem i am finding is when ever i ask for advise on here there are loads of different people saying different things and it is confusing me some say i need stand alone ecu some say just a remap some say mpi some say spi and second injector some say standard fuel pump ok some saying not and then i read the punto scharge and everyone says it died cos of a crank location pin prob but i read till he decided to sell and it turned out to be HG prob (pages 39-41) i just kind of fell like i am banging my head against a wall when looking for advise on here i am going to look at how the punto was done but all the pics are gone so its alittle hard to see how he did it

 

[custard]

ok this fuel cut off defender where do i get one from also for this would it be better to change to an mpi set up so each cylinder has its own injector thus better fuel delivery or am i wrong on this the problem i am finding is when ever i ask for advise on here there are loads of different people saying different things and it is confusing me some say i need stand alone ecu some say just a remap some say mpi some say spi and second injector some say standard fuel pump ok some saying not and then i read the punto scharge and everyone says it died cos of a crank location pin prob but i read till he decided to sell and it turned out to be HG prob (pages 39-41) i just kind of fell like i am banging my head against a wall when looking for advise on here i am going to look at how the punto was done but all the pics are gone so its alittle hard to see how he did it

well i look forward to it,try and keep an ongoing journal of the ups and down
as for the pics in the punto thread,this is why we ask folks to use the attachment feature/gallery for stuff like this on the forum
losing the pics renders the thread near useless

 

[MazCinq]

ok when i get to the stage of uploading the pics i will learn how to do that as i think it will be an interesting read and project

 

[Brooky]

standard fuel pump will never be good enough

 

[custard]

the attach feature is covered here

https://www.fiatforum.com/cinquecento-seicento-faqs/101588-getting-started-fiat-forum.html

 

[arc]

and everyone says it died cos of a crank location pin prob but i read till he decided to sell and it turned out to be HG prob (pages 39-41)

read it properly

https://www.fiatforum.com/punto/89930-punto-supercharged-43.html?p=1355512

And the problem was>

The key on the crank gave way, probably due to the forces imposed on it by the charger.

This allowed the timing to slip.......

Easy with hindsight, Ah well.

ok this fuel cut off defender where do i get one from also for this would it be better to change to an mpi set up so each cylinder has its own injector thus better fuel delivery or am i wrong on this

With an aftermarket ECU, you will not need an FCD. That was part of my point behind going MPI and fitting a single ECU that is up to the job!

 

[purf]

Hi mariocinq

The beauty of this hobby is you can do whatever you want

Dont let people put you off, if you have the time and money - why not do something different! The forum is useful to get peoples opinions but I think the weakness of forums is the fact you are not speaking to people face to face.

Its always very easy to miss interpret or not expand enough online, much like a text message. I think this is one reason a lot of people get fed up...

I always wonder at how people manage to spend time responding to a thread in a fed up and negative way - they may be trying to help, but i wonder why they bother if they are going to take the thread somewhere you wouldnt if you were really speaking to someone in the real world...

anyway keep up the research. youl be an expert on superchargers in no time.

best of luck with the project

Jeremy

 

[allanhelen]

I always wonder at how people manage to spend time responding to a thread in a fed up and negative way - they may be trying to help, but i wonder why they bother

Because we are grumpy B'stgards that have wasted way too much of our own time and money in the past, buying and trying things and failing because we didn't do the research before hand we just want to help other people avoid the same mistakes :bang:

I understand what is being said about the bigger injector. Normally fitting a larger injector (on a turbo conversion) will destroy the engines idle. But as a charger is always spinning, and always loading the engine - it will require more fuel/air to idle at the same RPM as it would do normally.

They may be spinning but not usually blowing, mini chargers should have a bypass so it is normal fuelling off boost the same as a turbo

 

[arc]

ok, but it's still going to be putting load on the engine - needing more fuel. As I said though, i wasn't suggesting go down this path - merely pondering how it might 'work'.

 

[allanhelen]

load is negligible when they are idling and not boosting TBH, less than turning the heater fan on but when they are squeezing air they do generate a lot of load.

something like Jason and Tricker did could be an easy halfway solution for fuelling with spi for normal running and an on boost MPI fuelling solution,

It is the mounting, driving, pipework and controlling the bypass/TB that are the biggest challengers here the rest is simple low blow setup

Mini chargers are quite a common mod on MX-5's now, doing all your own work and fabrication they cost around a grand to get fitted and running with a squirt

 

[arc]

Mini chargers are quite a common mod on MX-5's now, doing all your own work and fabrication they cost around a grand to get fitted and running with a squirt

i still want to do this

 

[MazCinq]

yeah ok it may have been me misunderstanding what was meant by some of the comments lol my bad

i have almost got how it will be mounted and driven sorted thats the relativly easy bit the problem i am getting stuck on is the fueling and ecu set up and which root to go down with it

the idea i have been contimplating and someone tell me if its a stupid idea is to use the stock chipped ecu to run the spi then shoehorn an mpi manifold on and use a seperate ecu to run the mpi inectors on boost of is this just going to cause more head aches than needed its just an idea but dont know if it has any chance of actually working or will it just totally overfuel and melt or break something

 

[ycming]

yeah ok it may have been me misunderstanding what was meant by some of the comments lol my bad

i have almost got how it will be mounted and driven sorted thats the relativly easy bit the problem i am getting stuck on is the fueling and ecu set up and which root to go down with it

the idea i have been contimplating and someone tell me if its a stupid idea is to use the stock chipped ecu to run the spi then shoehorn an mpi manifold on and use a seperate ecu to run the mpi inectors on boost of is this just going to cause more head aches than needed its just an idea but dont know if it has any chance of actually working or will it just totally overfuel and melt or break something

No need to shoe horn just use the mpi head.

Ming

 

[arc]

Re: supergharged cinq

the idea i have been contimplating and someone tell me if its a stupid idea is to use the stock chipped ecu to run the spi then shoehorn an mpi manifold on and use a seperate ecu to run the mpi inectors on boost of is this just going to cause more head aches than needed its just an idea but dont know if it has any chance of actually working or will it just totally overfuel and melt or break something

stop complicating it.

Bin the stock ECU.
Bin the stock head, inlet, throttle body.
Fit an MPI head, an MPI maniold, TB etc
Fit an aftermarket ECU and use that to run it all.

On here there is my car (megasquirt), kritips (megasquirt), emmas sei (emerald), emmas cinq (canems), rallycinq (dta i think), signwerx (omex?), brooky (megasquirt). There are plenty of us running aftermarket electronics.

by using the stock ECU for one thing, and then another do something else, you're making it more complex than it needs to be - more possibility for error, something to fail and it all to go wrong.

 

[allanhelen]

Re: supergharged cinq

i still want to do this

as I've said before you solder me a squirt and I'll help you with the rest

the idea i have been contimplating and someone tell me if its a stupid idea is to use the stock chipped ecu to run the spi then shoehorn an mpi manifold on and use a seperate ecu to run the mpi inectors on boost

Look at the set up fordcosworth (jason) is running

stop complicating it.

Bin the stock ECU.
Bin the stock head, inlet, throttle body.
Fit an MPI head, an MPI maniold, TB etc
Fit an aftermarket ECU and use that to run it all.

On here there is my car (megasquirt), kritips (megasquirt), emmas sei (emerald), emmas cinq (canems), rallycinq (dta i think), signwerx (omex?), brooky (megasquirt). There are plenty of us running aftermarket electronics.

by using the stock ECU for one thing, and then another do something else, you're making it more complex than it needs to be - more possibility for error, something to fail and it all to go wrong.

and the disadvantages are......... there are a darn sight more car out there running piggy back systems than stand alone and there are more and more examples of squirts been used as piggy backs too

In a simple application such as this it really is over the top and I know of 10 times more engines that have met a sticky end with custom ECU than with running piggy backs

 

[Whiley]

speaking from experience and turbo woes and pros, if this is your first time doing anything like this get it done proffesionally and ask if you can help/learn in the process or expect heartbreak. and tbh id ditch the 1108 and fit a 75 engine instead of just swapping the head. gl tho mate look forward to reading this thread

Gaz