Technical Sump oil leak? (MK2B 8v)

[nitramtpr]

Hi guys,

So.....My MK2b has had an oil leak ever since I've had it (18 months or so) I thought I'd fixed them by changing the rocker gasket the split oil breather pipe and coil 'o' ring but it looks like the sump has been the biggest culprit all along
I had a good look around the car and the top is all clean, zero oil anywhere above the driveshafts.
Underneath is a different matter, it looks like she had a new sump and drain plug in the near past, is it worth removing the sump and putting a new gasket (or is it just sealant?) on or is it a case of, you've got the old one on, you may as well bung a new one on?

Here are some pics, hopefully it'll confirm it's the sump and not something more sinister!

Clutch side

Cambelt side:

 

[Brendan W]

Re-doing the sump is not easy. If the correct RTV sealer was used it will be a pig to remove and the flanges most likely get bent. So before going there clean all the oil off with gunk and water and positively identify the source.
if the exhaust was not dropped for installation of the sump there is a high probablilty that the bead of sealer got touched on the way in. Even with the exhaust dropped it's still tricky and there is a good chance that the exhaust will break if it's old, especially at the flexi joint. DAMHIK

 

[judderbar]

Re-doing the sump is not easy. If the correct RTV sealer was used it will be a pig to remove and the flanges most likely get bent. So before going there clean all the oil off with gunk and water and positively identify the source.
if the exhaust was not dropped for installation of the sump there is a high probablilty that the bead of sealer got touched on the way in. Even with the exhaust dropped it's still tricky and there is a good chance that the exhaust will break if it's old, especially at the flexi joint. DAMHIK

Is it more likely the crankshaft seals are leaking?

 

[jimboy]

Aye, not very clear where the leak is coming from, I would get the underside steam cleaned or do a proper clean yourself & determine where the leak actually is, then take it from there.

 

[Elmo9]

Just replaced my sump 14 days ago as it was rusted through. Mine is a 2005 1.2 8V with 240XXX km on the clock.
I removed the exaust manifold to avoid having to slide the new sump with sealant up over it. It was a fairly easy job but took some time because of all the things that had to come off.
The sump itselft sits with 5 bolts at each side (fron & back) and 2 small bolts at each end (left & right). At the gearbox end you haave to remove the cover plate to get to the 2 small bolts and at the rear you have to remove the bar that goes from the engine block to the gearbox.
If you replace the sump be aware that there are 2 different types of sumps for the model dependent on the size of the bolts.

 

[s and b]

if you dont drop the exhaust its very easy to break the pickup pipe for the oil or put a small split in it,you will replace the sump and get no oil pressure so have to do it all again

got the shirt

 

[nitramtpr]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I'll give her a clean and then see what is what.
Stupid question time.....How can you tell if it's the sump or the crank seals, on the cambelt side it looks difficult to tell the difference as the oil would be coming from very similar places, on the clutch side, well even more difficult.
I do know it is only leaking at the ends and not the middle. I gave her a good jet wash after doing the camcover, breather pipe and 'O' ring. (reminder to self, not to do that again, she's too old and took days to recover).
I'll pop her on ramps and give it a good scrub. MOT is next week and I know oil leaks are a flippin' fail now

 

[judderbar]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I'll give her a clean and then see what is what.
Stupid question time.....How can you tell if it's the sump or the crank seals, on the cambelt side it looks difficult to tell the difference as the oil would be coming from very similar places, on the clutch side, well even more difficult.
I do know it is only leaking at the ends and not the middle. I gave her a good jet wash after doing the camcover, breather pipe and 'O' ring. (reminder to self, not to do that again, she's too old and took days to recover).
I'll pop her on ramps and give it a good scrub. MOT is next week and I know oil leaks are a flippin' fail now

Is your breather working on the intake to suck out the gases getting past the rings? There is a metal filter in the connection that could get blocked up. Otherwise you are going to be blowing oil out past the seals I think.



I suppose a bit of smoke from a cigarette on the dipstick hole would test if you have some suction there?

 

[nitramtpr]

Is your breather working on the intake to suck out the gases getting past the rings? There is a metal filter in the connection that could get blocked up. Otherwise you are going to be blowing oil out past the seals I think.



I suppose a bit of smoke from a cigarette on the dipstick hole would test if you have some suction there?

Being a dufus here, which breather is that? Is that the one that goes from the cam cover to the air filter?

 

[Brendan W]

Is it more likely the crankshaft seals are leaking?

Hard to say especially with a recent sump. The ends of the sump are likely fail areas but oil from above once it finds a joint can travel all the way around it.
If I was forced to guess I would probably be wrong.

 

[s and b]

ive posted this before but willing to repeat,garage gets job in on ramp times money so get new sump on get oil in get car out,unfortunately these sealants need time to cure so car was best left overnight to cure with no oil in,this is how i did them and never had a problem

 

[Ziggy122]

Mine got a pin hole....
Getting the bugger off is a nightmare!!

The adhesive was rock solid.... and you do end up bending the lip gettimg it off....

Exhaust manifold off makes it alot easier!

Remember 2x nuts on studs hide under the bell housing tin shield
And if you have the engine to box strut - its a bugger to get out...
I ended uo removing mine todo job too


A good overnight drain helps prevent any dribbles while actually working on it

Also
Dont just start the engine upon refitting

Disconnect crank or coils and crank engine over till oil pressure light goes out....
Defo check condition of the pickup pipe too

Ziggy

 

[judderbar]

Being a dufus here, which breather is that? Is that the one that goes from the cam cover to the air filter?

Yes but it seems nobody else here thinks it can be important for your problem..........

 

[rolandbrindley]

It looks to me like a crankshaft front main oil seal is leaking, and this is maybe caused by excessive play in the crankshaft front main bearing, causing the seal to be stressed. While this is an unusual fault on this engine, if it's an old car and especially a high mileage car, it's more than likely the cause. Old seals get hard with the heat and soon begin to pass oil in small quantities, made worse if the crank is walking around in the main bearings because of excessive play.

Get a long bar on a bottle jack and try to lift up the crank at the front pulley, even a very small amount of detectable movement will be enough to enable oil to pass. If you have a dial gauge rigged up with the plunger on top of the crank pulley you may be able to detect the actual amount of wear. More than 0.005" [five thousandth of an inch] will indicate sloppy mains. Clearance new will be around 0.002" to 0.003".

It should be possible to change the front seal without a big stripdown, removing the crank pulley and maybe the oil pump, not sure but most small cars allow this to be done without engine removal. However a new flexible seal will only run a few thousand miles if the crank bearings are really sloppy.

Keep away from seals that have no spring ring to grip the crank. Some rely on crankcase pressure to keep them closed, they soon leak, sometimes from day one. Fit a traditional type that really grips the sealing surface.

 

[nitramtpr]

It looks to me like a crankshaft front main oil seal is leaking, and this is maybe caused by excessive play in the crankshaft front main bearing, causing the seal to be stressed. While this is an unusual fault on this engine, if it's an old car and especially a high mileage car, it's more than likely the cause. Old seals get hard with the heat and soon begin to pass oil in small quantities, made worse if the crank is walking around in the main bearings because of excessive play.

Get a long bar on a bottle jack and try to lift up the crank at the front pulley, even a very small amount of detectable movement will be enough to enable oil to pass. If you have a dial gauge rigged up with the plunger on top of the crank pulley you may be able to detect the actual amount of wear. More than 0.005" [five thousandth of an inch] will indicate sloppy mains. Clearance new will be around 0.002" to 0.003".

It should be possible to change the front seal without a big stripdown, removing the crank pulley and maybe the oil pump, not sure but most small cars allow this to be done without engine removal. However a new flexible seal will only run a few thousand miles if the crank bearings are really sloppy.

Keep away from seals that have no spring ring to grip the crank. Some rely on crankcase pressure to keep them closed, they soon leak, sometimes from day one. Fit a traditional type that really grips the sealing surface.

That all sounds She's got 89k on the clock. The car only cost me £100, so I'm loathe to spend too much on her. But then again if I spend a couple of hundred quid it'll still be cheaper than having to find another car! I'll wait and see what my mechanic says at MOT time and take it from there. It might be cheaper to get another lump off ebay than having her stripped and re-built.
Now, this being a late MK2B it has the GP 1.2 8V engine, would an engine from a GP be a straight swap....electronics wise that is, or would I have to get the right engine from a MK2B?

Thanks for all the responses.

 

[nitramtpr]

So.............
Having a look on Ebay, I think you cannot put a GP engine in a MK2B as they have different ancilliaries, well, the fuel system looks different anyways.
There are some of the later MK2B engines on the bay, the easiest way to spot them is by the oil filler cap, the older ones have the flat square pull off cap like this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/03-06-FI...K-188A4000-ENGINE-REF-GS919-3014/253689008341

The newer ones have the circular screw off cap:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/fiat-punto-mk2-engine-1-2-8v-Engine-code-188a4000-86k-miles/232795073199

The GP engines....

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/fiat-gra...v-Engine-code-199A4000-69k-miles/232618399409

And what is this, advertised as a 1.2 8V, is it a 16valver?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FIAT-PUN...RE-ENGINE-188A4000-82K-2000-2004/153051734144