Technical Stilo JTD 2004 Flat spot in normal driving
- Thread starter chrissib
- Start date
Currently reading:
Technical Stilo JTD 2004 Flat spot in normal driving
I have no idea, it's a 1.9JTD estate 2004.....
engine plate reads
192A1000
version 192CXE1A14C
if that helps
been out and checked the cam belt. Things a bit tight but managed to remove the top cover. I marked the belt and rotated the engine, feels like good compression, and checked the teeth until my mark came round again. All looks ok. I have searched the forums for information on how to check the actual timing, and it seems that all is apparently done in comfortable workshop environments with an engine on a bench. I don't have that luxury, it's out on the drive on axle stands.
I need to know if I can check the timing in situ, or am I wasting my time. The car's quite old now, and I love it to bits, but if I cant check and fix this easily, I don't think its worth garage prices.
Yes..... 192A1.000 is the 8 valve 115hp engine.
To check the timing, you'll need to remove the front right wheel, wheel arch liner, engine side cover, and the timing belt cover and crankshaft pulley. You'll also need the crankshaft locking tool to fix the crankshaft at TDC. The timing cover and crankshaft pulleys are held on with RIBE bolts, so you'll need the appropriate bits.
The timing is correct when the crankshaft locking tool is fitted, and the timing mark on the camshaft pulley aligns with the pointer on the inner timing belt cover. As the crankshaft turns twice for each revolution of the camshaft, initially the camshaft mark could be 180° out, so you would have to turn the crankshaft one more revolution.
.
To check the timing, you'll need to remove the front right wheel, wheel arch liner, engine side cover, and the timing belt cover and crankshaft pulley. You'll also need the crankshaft locking tool to fix the crankshaft at TDC. The timing cover and crankshaft pulleys are held on with RIBE bolts, so you'll need the appropriate bits.
The timing is correct when the crankshaft locking tool is fitted, and the timing mark on the camshaft pulley aligns with the pointer on the inner timing belt cover. As the crankshaft turns twice for each revolution of the camshaft, initially the camshaft mark could be 180° out, so you would have to turn the crankshaft one more revolution.
.
Attachments
ok thanks for the info... I haven't got a locking tool, and in order to remove the crankshaft pulley, I assume the auxiliary belt would have to be taken off as well.
can I not just look at a mark on the bottom pulley without removing and locking stuff off. I assume as the teeth are ok, the timing shouldn't be out, just need a quick check then I can move on.
can I not just look at a mark on the bottom pulley without removing and locking stuff off. I assume as the teeth are ok, the timing shouldn't be out, just need a quick check then I can move on.
Yes... you would also need to remove the auxiliary belt.
Unfortunately, you can't accurately check the timing just by looking at it. There is a mark on the inner crankshaft pulley at roughly the 9 o'clock position, but there's no corresponding mark on the oil pump/front cover behind it, to line it up with.
.
Attachments
ok up till now I've mistakenly thought the CAM and the CRANKSHAFT sensors were one of the same thing, thinking it was only terminology, and thinking that as the 2 shafts were normally fixed, why have 2 sensors... but now I know this is not true, and having changed the 'Crankshaft' sensor, the other has NOT been changed.
I am loathed (and to be honest a little scared) to disturb the timing, when I cant see any good reason to assume this has slipped. In any case, someone has put marks on the pulleys, and although there are more marks than I expected, some do line up....
So my question is, can I change the 'CAMshaft' sensor without disturbing the camshaft wheel. There appears to be a nut, reachable through the spokes of the wheel. And also how does this work anyway, it looks as though it is reading the inside of the wheel, where it is purely metal, and not on the teeth which are on the outside of the wheel.
So confused:bang:
I am loathed (and to be honest a little scared) to disturb the timing, when I cant see any good reason to assume this has slipped. In any case, someone has put marks on the pulleys, and although there are more marks than I expected, some do line up....
So my question is, can I change the 'CAMshaft' sensor without disturbing the camshaft wheel. There appears to be a nut, reachable through the spokes of the wheel. And also how does this work anyway, it looks as though it is reading the inside of the wheel, where it is purely metal, and not on the teeth which are on the outside of the wheel.
So confused:bang:
No, you can't get the camshaft sensor out without removing the camshaft pulley.
The sensor is a three wire hall effect device which works by detecting a missing signal. There's a steel ring attached to the back of the pulley, which passes through a narrow slot in the sensor. The ring has a small cut-out which the sensor detects as it passes.
The sensor is held on by a 10 mm (spanner size) screw, and a 4 mm allen head countersunk screw. The allen screw is fixed with thread lock compound, and is difficult to remove. I wound the allen head out of mine (as can be seen in the photo below
), so had to hammer an oversized torx bit into it to get it out. If you're going to remove it, I'd advise getting a spare screw, just in case. Part number of the screw is 46779029..
Attachments
Thanks again for the info..
I assume its unavoidable now not to disturb the timing in order to change. Do you know if there is a way of testing this sensor?
Also I have punched the part number for the allen screw into several supposedly Fiat specialist parts websites, and they all come up with no results. Where do you suggest I get one from.
I assume its unavoidable now not to disturb the timing in order to change. Do you know if there is a way of testing this sensor?
Also I have punched the part number for the allen screw into several supposedly Fiat specialist parts websites, and they all come up with no results. Where do you suggest I get one from.
It is possible to test the sensor with a multimeter and external power supply, however if it was faulty, it should give one of the following fault codes:
P0340 Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit Malfunction
P0341 Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit Range/Performance
P0342 Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit Low Input
P0343 Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit High Input
P0344 Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit Intermittent
The screw is probably only available from a Fiat dealer.
.
P0340 Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit Malfunction
P0341 Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit Range/Performance
P0342 Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit Low Input
P0343 Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit High Input
P0344 Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit Intermittent
The screw is probably only available from a Fiat dealer.
.
In this whole episode I have not had any codes at all...
However, I have changed Crankshaft sensor, Fuel filter, cleaned EGR assembly, and got a timing alignment tool and a Cam sensor on the way. The computer/code reader has told me diddly squat.
So while I'm waiting for parts to arrive, and that I now have no choice in resetting the timing from scratch, a few of things I'm not sure about.
1. How do I know when the 1st cylinder is at TDC.. There is talk about rotating through 2 revolutions etc
2. Do I need a puller to get the camshaft pulley off, is it keyed, or do I have to note the exact position, considering it has marks.
3. How do I release the tension of the belt.
As you can tell, I'm not confident in this at all. When I was doing timing on cars, everything was easy....sparkplug out, pencil depth to get TDC, strobe on the crankshaft wheel, notch on the outside case...valves shut by gap in cams...no sensors, no computers to mess things up...job done.. Why did they have to complicate things
However, I have changed Crankshaft sensor, Fuel filter, cleaned EGR assembly, and got a timing alignment tool and a Cam sensor on the way. The computer/code reader has told me diddly squat.
So while I'm waiting for parts to arrive, and that I now have no choice in resetting the timing from scratch, a few of things I'm not sure about.
1. How do I know when the 1st cylinder is at TDC.. There is talk about rotating through 2 revolutions etc
2. Do I need a puller to get the camshaft pulley off, is it keyed, or do I have to note the exact position, considering it has marks.
3. How do I release the tension of the belt.
As you can tell, I'm not confident in this at all. When I was doing timing on cars, everything was easy....sparkplug out, pencil depth to get TDC, strobe on the crankshaft wheel, notch on the outside case...valves shut by gap in cams...no sensors, no computers to mess things up...job done.. Why did they have to complicate things
Turn the crankshaft until the crankshaft locking tool fits, then numbers 1 and 4 pistons will be at TDC.
You need to rotate the engine 2 revolutions after fitting the new timing belt to bed it in before setting the tensioner.
You only need to remove the outer auxiliary belt pulley, not the inner timing belt pulley. It doesn't need a puller. There's a small peg on the front of the timing belt pulley that engages with a hole on the back of the auxiliary belt pulley.
Loosen the lock nut in the centre of the tensioner. If you're fitting a new tensioner, remove the nut completely.
The procedure of setting the tensioner can be very awkward because it's difficult to see it with the engine fitted in the car. If you get it wrong, you could destroy the engine. If you're not reasonably confident, I would advise against doing it, or getting someone who is more confident to assist you.
When I was doing timing on cars, everything was easy....sparkplug out, pencil depth to get TDC, strobe on the crankshaft wheel, notch on the outside case...valves shut by gap in cams...no sensors, no computers to mess things up...job done.. Why did they have to complicate things
Emissions legislation.
.
Attachments
I'm changing the cam sensor, I thought you said in a previous post, this cant be done without removing the camshaft pulley....
unfortunately there is only me, and I have no choice. That's why I'm posting on here and taking advice from people like yourself. Don't see much point in having a forum if we're all experts..
Fact is the car is already in bits, it cant go anywhere, and it doesn't run. So I either call a scrappy, or persevere.
Sorry.... I misread your Q2 as crankshaft pulley.
The camshaft pulley is keyed, so can only go on one way. It doesn't need a puller, but may need a gentle tap.
.
Ok that's it then....I'm beaten..
I've done everything I know now. I have changed both Crank and Camshaft sensors, cleaned EGR assembly, changed fuel filter, re-done the timing belt....and the car still wont run..
So unless anyone has any more suggestions, I think its time to call the scrappy.
I've done everything I know now. I have changed both Crank and Camshaft sensors, cleaned EGR assembly, changed fuel filter, re-done the timing belt....and the car still wont run..
So unless anyone has any more suggestions, I think its time to call the scrappy.
I can't think of anything to add to what's already been posted.
If an expert got it wrong.... what chance have we got?
Still surprised you're not getting any fault codes though. What code reader are you using? Have you tested it to see it's working? i.e. disconnect an engine sensor, then try to start the car, then connect the code reader to check for the relevant fault code.
.
Hi. Just read through your posts again, it’s been a real pain this car hasn’t it.
When the crank sensor goes you usually get the message “loose connection” flash up on the screen.
The only thing I would say is blank the EGR completely, don’tworry about it going into limp mode at least if the car runs we have a clue what’sgoing on.
Cleaning the EGR is pretty much a waste of time given your problem as you still don’t know if it is working or not.
Just use a baked bean can for now using the gasket as atemplate don’t put any holes in it apart from the bolt holes put it back together and see what happens, should take about 30 minutes.
Here’s how I do them.
You want the silver corrugated pipe that bolts onto the EGR two torx bolts, undo the top one and loosen the bottom one use a screwdriver and slip the top of the gasket out so you can hold it then undo the bottom bolt remove the gasket.
Flatten a bean can (leave it doubled) mark around the gasket with a marker pen and mark the bolt holes, drill the bolt holes before cutting the outside shape (it’s safer that way).
Get the bottom bolt in first holding the blank at an angle then turn the blank so as to aline the top bolt tighten up your done.
I didn’t put the original gasket back and it sealed up o.k.
When the crank sensor goes you usually get the message “loose connection” flash up on the screen.
The only thing I would say is blank the EGR completely, don’tworry about it going into limp mode at least if the car runs we have a clue what’sgoing on.
Cleaning the EGR is pretty much a waste of time given your problem as you still don’t know if it is working or not.
Just use a baked bean can for now using the gasket as atemplate don’t put any holes in it apart from the bolt holes put it back together and see what happens, should take about 30 minutes.
Here’s how I do them.
You want the silver corrugated pipe that bolts onto the EGR two torx bolts, undo the top one and loosen the bottom one use a screwdriver and slip the top of the gasket out so you can hold it then undo the bottom bolt remove the gasket.
Flatten a bean can (leave it doubled) mark around the gasket with a marker pen and mark the bolt holes, drill the bolt holes before cutting the outside shape (it’s safer that way).
Get the bottom bolt in first holding the blank at an angle then turn the blank so as to aline the top bolt tighten up your done.
I didn’t put the original gasket back and it sealed up o.k.
Last edited:
