General RED_75SXs map thread split

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General RED_75SXs map thread split

RED_75SX

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Re: EBAY mod Chip Power Increase UPTO 20BHP VariPower etc.

ok i goin hook one up on my MAP sensor as that will work the best and instead of making the car run rich i goin to get the air fuel ratio to about 12.5(on wideband equipment)as my car is runing rich now.putting this thing on the itake air temp sensor is a waste of time and so is putting it on the O2 sensor i can only see it working on the Map sensor signal wire running to the ecu as this tells the ecu how much air the engine is getting and the engine uses this to determine how much fuel to inject.Will let you guys know how it goes

Please remember i will be using a inovate wide band sensor to check air fuel ratio.Not any cheap unaccurate narrowband sensor.
 

hmallett

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Re: EBAY mod Chip Power Increase UPTO 20BHP VariPower etc.

The engine uses a variety of inputs to decide how much fuel to inject. You're right that the MAF sensor is one of these, but the temp sensor is too. By fooling the engine into remaining on the cold cycle, you get more fuel injected. Plus plenty of bore wash to go with it! :mad:
This would have been the same on old cars too.
H
 
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RED_75SX

RED_75SX

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Re: EBAY mod Chip Power Increase UPTO 20BHP VariPower etc.

at a lower MAP pressure it will always inject less fuel and i am not fooling the Intake air temp or the O2 sensor(this sensor seems to have little effect as mine came of an was hanging in just atmosphere air car run the same).Seems like the map sensor mod is having the greatest effect and no rich mixture either rather im leaning to a safe point.
 
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RED_75SX

RED_75SX

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Re: EBAY mod Chip Power Increase UPTO 20BHP VariPower etc.

the way i see it putting this mod to make the car richer is worthless as the car will get slower and gas consumption will rise.Now leaning the car will have good effects like lower gas consumption and more power.Now that is why i am hooking my "variable resistor" on the MAP sensor.Now this must be checked on wideband lambda(air/fueal ratio)equipment to make sure the car does not run to lean.Car should make most power around 12.5 afr
 

dave

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Re: EBAY mod Chip Power Increase UPTO 20BHP VariPower etc.

kipster said:
All Fiat engines like to be revved. Except the MK2:mad:
your mk2 has same engine as as mk1 its a fire engine been used for years, the old girl in fiesta with choke out wont have a cat, running a car rich will kill a cat
 

dave

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Re: EBAY mod Chip Power Increase UPTO 20BHP VariPower etc.

RED_75SX said:
Now leaning the car will have good effects like lower gas consumption and more power
no. it will knacker your plugs and possibly burn out your valves and will pink
 

kipster

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Re: EBAY mod Chip Power Increase UPTO 20BHP VariPower etc.

Agreed, it will probably Knacker the cat. But that is not destroying the engine?
I wouldn't waste my time fitting one of these things, but i was curious what damage it would cause.

Thanks.
 

HP

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Re: EBAY mod Chip Power Increase UPTO 20BHP VariPower etc.

RED_75SX said:
the way i see it putting this mod to make the car richer is worthless as the car will get slower and gas consumption will rise.Now leaning the car will have good effects like lower gas consumption and more power.Now that is why i am hooking my "variable resistor" on the MAP sensor.Now this must be checked on wideband lambda(air/fueal ratio)equipment to make sure the car does not run to lean.Car should make most power around 12.5 afr

Running very slightly richer will give more power, but not much.
If it's running weaker it will most likely hesitate, too.

Running weaker will give a slow burn so the exhaust gas is still on fire as it leaves the combustion chamber, and if it happens to an extreme can burn out exhaust valves and cause overheating.

Putting a variable resistor in the map sensor wiring. Hmmm. Chances are it won't do anything at all, never mind anything good. The reason you can fool the air temp sensor is because it is a temperature dependant variable resistor, with the current flowing through it being used as a signal for the ecu. Adding resistance makes it think the air temp is cooler. ****

The MAP sensor however uses a different principal to measure. It's resistance doesn't change with varying manifold pressure, but it sends a varying voltage signal into a fixed impedance input in the ecu that you can't just shunt in the same manner. If it was that easy, then you wouldn't need to go to the lengths of fitting electronic fuel cut defenders to turbo cinqs - they limit or 'cap' the signal from the sensor so the ecu doesn't have a heart attack and shut the whole job down.
Similar principal for the lambda sensor signal.

If you're investing in a wideband lambda to log your results, you're looking at a lot of cash - enough to have the ecu remapped by someone who can actually optimise it and make it go faster.

**** What happens here is well documented within this site, but we'll go through it briefly again:
You try to fool the ecu into thinking it's got cold air. It adds a little more fuel. Lambda sensor says "oi oi, too rich matey" and weakens the fuelling again. Net result - you're depriving the ecu of one of the sensors it needs to make your car run the way you want it to, and you get no more power.

Couple of questions.

If it was as easy as sticking a 5p resistor in to get more power, wouldn't the manufacturers just do that and save the cost of a very expensive sensor?

Are the ebay resistors calibrated to the car? Do they work at a value which will give the correct results, or are they just a guess - "It runs 5 k ohms at 5'c and 1 k ohms at 30'c, so we'll whack a 4 k ohm resistor in to make it think the air is 25'c colder". You think your ebay power seller has any idea or interest as to what car or engine you have?


--------------------------------------

Summary for those of you who can't be bothered to read the above.

Remapping by a professional will give more power. The fuelling and ignition advance curves can be optimised for your setup and give more fuel economy and more power.

Fiddling about with 5p of components from Maplins to try and fudge a signal will do no good whatsoever.
 
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RED_75SX

RED_75SX

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Re: EBAY mod Chip Power Increase UPTO 20BHP VariPower etc.

dave said:
no. it will knacker your plugs and possibly burn out your valves and will pink
if you run at the right air fuel ratio this will not happen as i stated car will be set using a wideband datalogger.
 
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RED_75SX

RED_75SX

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Re: EBAY mod Chip Power Increase UPTO 20BHP VariPower etc.

fixitagaintomorrow said:
Running very slightly richer will give more power, but not much.
If it's running weaker it will most likely hesitate, too.
Car will should make most power around 12.5 AFR thats the aim i am not goin to run it as lean as i can i am goin to have it set to a good afr.. car is already running to rich as it has been dataloged on a wideband.
 
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RED_75SX

RED_75SX

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Re: EBAY mod Chip Power Increase UPTO 20BHP VariPower etc.

fixitagaintomorrow said:
If you're investing in a wideband lambda to log your results, you're looking at a lot of cash - enough to have the ecu remapped by someone who can actually optimise it and make it go faster.
I already have a shared INOVATE lm-1 wideband logger as a mate and I have been tunning several stand alone systems such as autronic,haltech and perfect power.Through the US a inovate lm-1 costs £395 worth it as its the best tuning tool and its a good investment as people pay alot to datalog and use the equipment
 
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RED_75SX

RED_75SX

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Re: EBAY mod Chip Power Increase UPTO 20BHP VariPower etc.

fixitagaintomorrow said:
Putting a variable resistor in the map sensor wiring. Hmmm. Chances are it won't do anything at all, never mind anything good. The reason you can fool the air temp sensor is because it is a temperature dependant variable resistor, with the current flowing through it being used as a signal for the ecu. Adding resistance makes it think the air temp is cooler. ****

The MAP sensor however uses a different principal to measure. It's resistance doesn't change with varying manifold pressure, but it sends a varying voltage signal into a fixed impedance input in the ecu that you can't just shunt in the same manner. If it was that easy, then you wouldn't need to go to the lengths of fitting electronic fuel cut defenders to turbo cinqs - they limit or 'cap' the signal from the sensor so the ecu doesn't have a heart attack and shut the whole job down.
Similar principal for the lambda sensor signal.

If you're investing in a wideband lambda to log your results, you're looking at a lot of cash - enough to have the ecu remapped by someone who can actually optimise it and make it go faster.

**** What happens here is well documented within this site, but we'll go through it briefly again:
You try to fool the ecu into thinking it's got cold air. It adds a little more fuel. Lambda sensor says "oi oi, too rich matey" and weakens the fuelling again. Net result - you're depriving the ecu of one of the sensors it needs to make your car run the way you want it to, and you get no more power.
Variable resistor is only hooked up on to MAP sensor's signal wire and yes it does work as i can get the car to idle rough and even cut off(too lean of mixture)by turning up the resistance,Now how many of you all can prove the lambda sensor will tell the ecu change the mixture ?I have many different experiences that have proved this wrong now if i can get the car to idle rough(too lean)why hasn't the lambda sensor made the ecu correct this?I know cause i have actually tried it and car was being logged.As soon as i find out anything concerning when the lambda will actually do anything i will tell you all.
 

dave

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Re: EBAY mod Chip Power Increase UPTO 20BHP VariPower etc.

RED_75SX said:
Now how many of you all can prove the lambda sensor will tell the ecu change the mixture ?
its its job thats what its there for, if it dont then its broke
 
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RED_75SX

RED_75SX

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Re: EBAY mod Chip Power Increase UPTO 20BHP VariPower etc.

dave said:
its its job thats what its there for, if it dont then its broke
I guess your right but like i say i have played with these things already and have been monitoring AFR using wideband equipment and the ecu has not made any attemp to change mixture as you dont see the change on the logger
 

chaos

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Re: EBAY mod Chip Power Increase UPTO 20BHP VariPower etc.

RED_75SX said:
I guess your right but like i say i have played with these things already and have been monitoring AFR using wideband equipment and the ecu has not made any attemp to change mixture as you dont see the change on the logger

Just wondering, but what sort of timescale are we looking at with the datalogger? It could take a hundred miles plus for the ECU to alter its settings........:chin:
 
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RED_75SX

RED_75SX

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Re: EBAY mod Chip Power Increase UPTO 20BHP VariPower etc.

chaos said:
Just wondering, but what sort of timescale are we looking at with the datalogger? It could take a hundred miles plus for the ECU to alter its settings........:chin:
well it sure is taking long and the settings are changed very little but your probally right as we havent done more than a couple hours
 

HP

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Re: EBAY mod Chip Power Increase UPTO 20BHP VariPower etc.

RED_75SX said:
Car will should make most power around 12.5 AFR thats the aim i am not goin to run it as lean as i can i am goin to have it set to a good afr.. car is already running to rich as it has been dataloged on a wideband.

First, please stick it all in one post and not across 9 different ones :)

If your car is running too rich, then you have another problem which you need to fix before you do any more tuning. Running slightly richer than factory standard will produce marginally more power, but will give poorer emissions and mpg.

I already have a shared INOVATE lm-1 wideband logger as a mate and I have been tunning several stand alone systems such as autronic,haltech and perfect power.Through the US a inovate lm-1 costs £395 worth it as its the best tuning tool and its a good investment as people pay alot to datalog and use the equipment

Are you doing before and after rolling road plots, or doing on-the-fly remapping? Rolling road time is expensive, and I maintain that for the average joe on here a remap by Angel, Superchips or GSR will give guaranteed results at a reasonable price.

Variable resistor is only hooked up on to MAP sensor's signal wire and yes it does work as i can get the car to idle rough and even cut off(too lean of mixture)by turning up the resistance,Now how many of you all can prove the lambda sensor will tell the ecu change the mixture ?I have many different experiences that have proved this wrong now if i can get the car to idle rough(too lean)why hasn't the lambda sensor made the ecu correct this?I know cause i have actually tried it and car was being logged.As soon as i find out anything concerning when the lambda will actually do anything i will tell you all.

Why on earth are you fiddling with map sensor inputs to make the car think it's getting more air? The way to get a car to go faster is to actually give it more air, not interfere with the signal froma sensor it needs to calculate the running conditions. Is a fixed change in the map sensor signal across the board from light throttle low revs to full throttle max revs giving proven bhp results at safe mixtures? Broadly speaking, sensors give out signals across fixed ranges. You need to alter what you do with the mapping as a result of these signals, not alter the signals themselves.

The ecu can only adjust to within about 10% of it's factory map. If you've gone beyond the 10% then you've lost control and no amount of signal fiddling will work, this could be why you don't see the changes.

I repeat, the map sensor signal is not the same type as the air temp sensor. You could damage the ecu by putting resistors in series or parallel with it. An electronic signal capper or changer is the only safe way to adjust this.
 
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RED_75SX

RED_75SX

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Re: EBAY mod Chip Power Increase UPTO 20BHP VariPower etc.

Sorry bout the 9 post i just didnt want a long post
Are you doing before and after rolling road plots, or doing on-the-fly remapping? Rolling road time is expensive, and I maintain that for the average joe on here a remap by Angel, Superchips or GSR will give guaranteed results at a reasonable price.
Dont live in the UK so Angel Superchips or GSR is not an option i am just having the logger log a few on the road runs and then comparing also monitoring the AFR while driving(well a mate in the passenger seat)

Why on earth are you fiddling with map sensor inputs to make the car think it's getting more air?
No i am actually making it think its getting less air

Now the map sensor's signal wire was hooked up on a tester and the voltage(signal) running to the ecu was very stable and voltage increased with pressure as you pressed on harder,So what we did was tested the voltage before the variable resistor and after(lower voltage after being sent to the ecu making the ecu think less air)Car is more driveable as i took the variable resistor off last night to actually know if im feeling a difference and the car is much more drivable.Car is better with resistor on and set properly.Take off is much better

I repeat, the map sensor signal is not the same type as the air temp sensor. You could damage the ecu by putting resistors in series or parallel with it. An electronic signal capper or changer is the only safe way to adjust this.
why would this damage the ecu.The signal voltage is only lower wish the ecu sees at lower Manifold pressure.If i put a signal capper i will only clamp the voltage,Its not a fuel cut im getting because the voltage is getting to high like what happens when you raise boost too high in a turboed vehicle.I want the car to run a different afr throughout the rev range(now i wont get it perfect only a standalone or remap will as i have to adjust it so all through the rev range its runs a safe AFR that mean some places will be richer than i would like but safe.

Now mind me as i do have other vehicles and i do map a couple.I am experimenting on this vehicle cause of its ease to work on and i can surely give you guys results without you having to mess with your own car,its amazing what these things do and i love doing this and trying knew things as how would we ever know unless we try them.I surely wont do this on my Evo 6
 

HP

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Re: EBAY mod Chip Power Increase UPTO 20BHP VariPower etc.

I agree you may be seeing some differences, but if you're already running too rich I'd suggest you have an underlying problem somewhere else.

If the car is running as intended, mixture changes should only make a slight difference to performance.

I wouldn't reccommend to anyone that they play with the signals from the sensors. If someone gets it wrong it could cause damage were they to inadvertently short out signals to and from the ecu.
We can get piggyback ecu's which intercept, alter and send back modified signals to increase performance, but to be of any effect they need to be set up properly. Simply giving a reduced signal back instead isn't really ideal.
 
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