Technical Problem with front coil spring replacement??

[jumbomechanic]

Hi guys,
A few weeks back I replace my front left coil spring on my 1.9JTD 5 door stilo because it had snapped.
I followed the guide and everything went ok, except..............................

After fitting, I noticed that the top rubber cap on top of the suspension turret (on top of the shock strut), was sitting/floating above the suspension turret (in the engine bay) by approx 10mm???

This did not match the other side, and would not go down, even now after bedding in?

I have checked everyhing and cant see what Ive done wrong?

Can anyone help please?

Its wierd, the rubber washer is just floating above the turret, so is doing nothing, relying on the weight of the car to keep the strut/spring assy in position??

Help please...................anyone...................????

Thanks for any advice

Rgds

Lee

 

[Deckchair5]

I can't say whether you've assembled your strut correctly but it's normal for the top securing cap to sit up high and not be touching anything. It's largely there to stop the strut falling out if you go over a humped bridge at speed etc

 

[Yellow Peril]

:yeahthaton't worry, it's wierd, but quite normal!

 

[Shadeyman]

I've replaced 3 sets of springs now.

Both parts of the top rubbers have to be aligned correctly with the spring and strut when you reassemble everything. Not doing so causes the top of the strut not to sit correctly when reinstalled.

The top rubber should not be floating, that means the top of your strut is not securley held in place and will move up and down on a rough road surface creating a bang or knocking sound.

My advice is remove both front struts and reassemble it to mirror the otherside.

On a side note, its best to replace both springs at the same time.

 

[Yellow Peril]

I've replaced 3 sets of springs now.

Both parts of the top rubbers have to be aligned correctly with the spring and strut when you reassemble everything. Not doing so causes the top of the strut not to sit correctly when reinstalled.

The top rubber should not be floating, that means the top of your strut is not securley held in place and will move up and down on a rough road surface creating a bang or knocking sound.

My advice is remove both front struts and reassemble it to mirror the otherside.

On a side note, its best to replace both springs at the same time.

I think we're at cross purposes. You are talking about the rubber mount that fits under the wing. Decks and I are talking about the rubber 'ring' that fits above the wing, between the top of the wing and the securing bolt. As Decks says, that ring deffo 'floats'...

 

[jumbomechanic]

Sorry if im not clear guys, Im talking bout the black solid ring you can see in the engine bay, underneath the top nut - NOT the rubber top mount assy in the wheel arch.

Does that make it clearer?? :bang:

Trouble is, the one I replaced "floats" alot more than the other side???

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm??

 

[Shadeyman]

I think we're at cross purposes. You are talking about the rubber mount that fits under the wing. Decks and I are talking about the rubber 'ring' that fits above the wing, between the top of the wing and the securing bolt. As Decks says, that ring deffo 'floats'...

Yes, I'm talking about the one under the bonnet. It should not be floating 10mm.

Sorry if im not clear guys, Im talking bout the black solid ring you can see in the engine bay, underneath the top nut - NOT the rubber top mount assy in the wheel arch.

Does that make it clearer?? :bang:

Trouble is, the one I replaced "floats" alot more than the other side???

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm??

Maybe the attached photo will help.

This is how it should look when correctly fitted. A 2mm gap is nothing to worry about but no gap at all is best. If the gap is bigger the rubber under the wing is not sitting correctly and should be realigned.

 

[Davren]

Yes, I'm talking about the one under the bonnet. It should not be floating 10mm.

A 2mm gap is nothing to worry about but no gap at all is best. If the gap is bigger the rubber under the wing is not sitting correctly and should be realigned.

Where does the figure of 2mm come from?

As said by Decks and YP above, the rubber ringed plate above the suspension turret should "float". It's sole function is to prevent the strut from falling out if ever the car went "airborne"

If it were flush with the top of the turret, it could subject the bearing situated between the two rubber mounting parts to excessive pressure.

It would also suggest that the mountings are severely worn or incorrectly aligned with each other and the hole in the top of the turret or that the plate is bent.

 

[jumbomechanic]

Surely if the top mount and bearing is seated correctly in the wheel arch, then the strut thread, nut and round rubber disc will protrude further and sit higher, giving more of a floating gap??
So, if the top mount is NOT seated properly in the wheel arch, then the strut thread and nut and floating gap will be less, surely??

 

[Shadeyman]

Where does the figure of 2mm come from?

As said by Decks and YP above, the rubber ringed plate above the suspension turret should "float". It's sole function is to prevent the strut from falling out if ever the car went "airborne"

If it were flush with the top of the turret, it could subject the bearing situated between the two rubber mounting parts to excessive pressure.

It would also suggest that the mountings are severely worn or incorrectly aligned with each other and the hole in the top of the turret or that the plate is bent.

When they are factory fitted there is no gap at all, the top of the strut is held securely in place, the top of the strut is basically rubber mounted, there should be no gap to allow any vertical movement inside the torret even if the car is airbourne. With use a small gap may appear(2mm), but there should not be a 10mm gap.

The lower rubber inside the turret should not be allowed to move, even a rough road can cause this to happen because the shock absorber works in both directions, the car does not have to be airbourne. If there's a gap, the top of the strut will move vertically inside the turret wearing the rubber away and increasing the size of the gap.

If there is a large gap there is someting wrong.

Maybe the 2 halves of the lower rubber has been incorrectly aligned?
Or the lower rubber hasn't been aligned with the strut correctly?(thread left showing is short)
Overtightening the nut that holds the lower rubber with the bearing in place is a common error.(thread left showing is too long)

 

[jumbomechanic]

Shadedman,
I followed the guide to align the bearing and the rubber top mount with the spring/shock,so I don't think it's that?

However, u say that if the nut on top of the bearing is tightened too much, too much tread might be left showing? This could be the problem, but I don't understand how it can be too tight, as surely you tighten this nut until the bearing plate is fully down on top of the shock strut acuator lip? Ie. Wound fully down until can't go any more?

 

[Shadeyman]

I replaced both front springs on our old Stilo(2002 JTD 5 door). Like you the first side I did the top rubber had a quarter of an inch gap. Our old Stilo had never had its front struts removed before so when I compared the new to the old I knew there was something wrong. I called a friend who works for Fiat and he told me the top of the Stilo front struts are rubber mounted to reduce noise, similar to how the engine is mounted. I removed the other strut and reasembled the first one, mirroring the original, that solved my problem.
I've since done my daughters and our Multiwagon. I use a silver marker pen to mark all the parts before I dismantle the strut, that way I can be sure everything is correctly aligned when I reasemble them.

 

[jumbomechanic]

OK, I'll rebuild the strut, comparing it to the other side - but from what i can tell (by feel only), the original shock strut alignment, aswell as the one I havent removed yet, DO NOT LINE UP WITH THE FORUM GUIDE????
Wierd, I'll have go over next few days (aswell as replacing my rear discs, pads and a caliper), and see how it turns out!!!

Thanks again for all your help guys

 

[Davren]

When they are factory fitted there is no gap at all, the top of the strut is held securely in place.

Where does that information come from?

I've never seen a new Stilo staight off the production line so can't comment on it, but looking at the design from an engineering point of view, I'm inclined to doubt it.

the top of the strut is basically rubber mounted, there should be no gap to allow any vertical movement inside the torret even if the car is airbourne. With use a small gap may appear(2mm), but there should not be a 10mm gap.

Every MacPherson strut type suspension I've ever seen is rubber mounted at the top. Most systems are bolted securely to the turret, however, the Stilo system relies on the tapered top mounting rubber wedging into a similar taper in the bottom of the turret and being held in place by the weight of the car acting on it. I still believe that the rubber ringed plate above the turret is only there to prevent the strut falling out if the car went "airborne".

The lower rubber inside the turret should not be allowed to move

The lower part of the rubber inside the turret must be able to move or you wouldn't be able to steer the car. The lower and upper parts are seperated with a metal roller bearing so the lower part can turn when steering.

Maybe the 2 halves of the lower rubber has been incorrectly aligned?
Or the lower rubber hasn't been aligned with the strut correctly?(thread left showing is short)
Overtightening the nut that holds the lower rubber with the bearing in place is a common error.(thread left showing is too long)

The top of the strut piston rod is stepped and the upper part of the rubber mounting under the turret has a central metal spacer that locates on the step. Once they are tightened together, the thread left showing can't change. It can't be too short or too long and I can't see what the "common error" could be. Over tightening the top nut wouldn't make any difference to the amount of thread showing.



The gap under the rubber ringed plate above the turret on my MW has always been about 4 or 5mm, before and after fitting new struts and mountings.



Just for info, this is the correct alignment.

 

[Shadeyman]

Dave, I have the utmost respect for you but your wrong.

The lower part of the rubber inside the turret must be able to move or you wouldn't be able to steer the car. The lower and upper parts are seperated with a metal roller bearing so the lower part can turn when steering.

Thats correct, its also the part where the nut that holds the 2 halves together and the spring in place is sometimes over tightened.

A friend of mine is a Fiat grease monkey who works for Quest Fiat(a dealer near where I live). He told me the top of the Stilo strut is rubber mounted to help noise reduction. He said there is no gap when when the car is new. It should not be able to move in any direction (including vertically) in the turret. Our old Stilo had never had a strut removed so I was able to confirm what he said.

Most do have a small gap due to wear and tare but they should not have a large gap, 10mm is far too big and will allow movement on rough roads that will wear away the lower rubber and increase noise levels.


EDIT.
Parts 5 and 10 fit together and are bolted into place with a nut(part 6) this nut is sometimes overtightened putting extra stress on the bearing that sits between parts 5 and 10. This can also stiffen the steering if it is seriously over done.

Part 5 and 8 sandwich the turret between them resulting in the top of the strut being rubber mounted.

 

[Davren]

A friend of mine is a Fiat grease monkey who works for Quest Fiat(a dealer near where I live). He told me the top of the Stilo strut is rubber mounted to help noise reduction.

As far as I know, all MacPherson strut type suspension systems are rubber mounted at the top to help noise reduction. The only difference with the Stilo is that, unlike all other cars I know of, the top mounting is not bolted to the turret. (possibly a cost reduction idea to avoid the need for a studded metalastic plate).

Parts 5 and 10 fit together and are bolted into place with a nut(part 6) this nut is sometimes overtightened putting extra stress on the bearing that sits between parts 5 and 10. This can also stiffen the steering if it is seriously over done.

Here's where we're probably going to have to agree to disagree.

The upper and lower parts (5 and 10) of the mounting below the turret are not bolted together with the nut (6).

As can be seen from the pictures I posted above, the lower part (10) has a much bigger hole than the hole in the spacer in the upper part (5). The lower part (10) can slide over the full diameter of the strut piston rod. The upper part (5) with a smaller hole can only fit down to the step in the piston rod. The nut (6) only clamps the upper part (5) to the step in the piston rod. The lower part (10) is only held in place by upward pressure of the spring.

If (for example) you were to assemble the strut and top mounting parts without the spring, the lower part (10) would fall to the bottom of the piston rod. It can't be bolted into place with the nut (6), so over tightening the nut would have no effect on it, or the bearing, or the steering.

Part 5 and 8 sandwich the turret between them resulting in the top of the strut being rubber mounted.

The upper part of the mounting (5) and the rubber ringed plate (8) are not designed to sandwich the parts solidly to the turret. If you were to remove the top nut (7) and the plate (8), the car would drive exactly the same. (providing it didn't go airborne).

 

[Shadeyman]

I know I'll not be able to convince you there should be no gap and the strut should not be allowed to move just like other cars, so I give up.