Hello, I'm new to this forum - found it because I'm desperate for some advice. Quickly! I have a 2 & a bit year-old Panda 4x4, with 20k miles on the clock & have just found I need to replace one front tyre. The problem is the car came fitted with Pirelli 190 Snow tyres as standard & initially I was told these were out of stock - COMPLETELY IN THE UK! & then on subsequent further investigation with Pirelli, that they are obsolete & the new Series 2 has not been 'tested & approved' for fitting on the Panda 4x4. Nor will Pirelli tell me if I can mix the new tyre with the old. The 2 back tyres have 6mm tread, so no need to replace & the other front tyre has 3.5mm, so not needed yet, but I'm not happy that it looks as though I'm going to have to buy 4 new tyres. I bought the car as I genuinely need its 4x4 capabilities in my rural life (its an absolute star in mud & snow), but I think the dealer should have pointed out what I now know about snow tyres - i.e. softer composition/wear faster in summer months. Are they really appropriate to sell as standard on UK cars? Does anyone have any suggestions or advice about how to avoid chucking away 2 or 3 perfectly good tyres? Much appreciated!
General Problem with 4x4 tyres
- Thread starter susiep
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General Problem with 4x4 tyres
doctorchris
Established member
You should really replace both tyres across the one axle but the rears, with 6mm of tread can still be left on the car. The front tyre with 3.5mm of tread may be legal but is below the recommended wear limit for a winter tyre and it would be a false economy to leave it on the car.
The fact that a tyre has not been tested and approved for the Panda is a red herring and would not prevent you fitting it if you really wanted that tyre. However, it sounds to me like you would be happier fitting all-season tyres rather than winter tyres. There's a lot of discussion on this forum about all season tyres and the Vredestein Quatrac II tyre seems to be very popular.
So, in conclusion, in my opinion you should replace both the front tyres with all season tyres but ask if the front wheels can be swapped to the back, as it's recommended that new tyres are fitted to the rear. Keep the Pirelli tyres which will now be on the front but change them when they wear below 4mm or so. I don't see a great problem with you having winter tyres on the front and all seasons on the rear but others here may differ in their opinion.
Finally regarding suitability of winter tyres for the UK market, my Cross had winter tyres fitted from new and they performed excellently in last winters snow. Four wheel drive allows you to pull away easily on a slippery surface but the winter tyres gave excellent cornering and braking on snow, which four wheel drive cannot influence. The tyres have worn reasonably well. You have to realise that 4x4 Pandas wear their tyres faster than front wheel drive models anyway. Therefore, I feel that winter tyres are a suitable fit for the UK.
Another thought. There are concerns about four wheel drive vehicles with unequal tyre wear experiencing drive train damage. I don't believe this would be a problem if the tyres on one axle had 6mm of tread and those on the other axle had full tread. It is a good idea, however, to swap tyres from front to back and vice versa every 6,000 miles to even out tyre wear.
Yet another thought. Why was only one front tyre worn to the legal limit? There may be an issue with steering geometry settings, not unusual with the Panda and this might need adjusting. Speak to a reputable tyre dealer about this. Oh, and don't buy your tyres at a Fiat dealer, you will usually get a better deal and range at a tyre specialist.
Sorry for the long-winded reply but tyres are complicated and there is often a lot of controversy regarding them.
The fact that a tyre has not been tested and approved for the Panda is a red herring and would not prevent you fitting it if you really wanted that tyre. However, it sounds to me like you would be happier fitting all-season tyres rather than winter tyres. There's a lot of discussion on this forum about all season tyres and the Vredestein Quatrac II tyre seems to be very popular.
So, in conclusion, in my opinion you should replace both the front tyres with all season tyres but ask if the front wheels can be swapped to the back, as it's recommended that new tyres are fitted to the rear. Keep the Pirelli tyres which will now be on the front but change them when they wear below 4mm or so. I don't see a great problem with you having winter tyres on the front and all seasons on the rear but others here may differ in their opinion.
Finally regarding suitability of winter tyres for the UK market, my Cross had winter tyres fitted from new and they performed excellently in last winters snow. Four wheel drive allows you to pull away easily on a slippery surface but the winter tyres gave excellent cornering and braking on snow, which four wheel drive cannot influence. The tyres have worn reasonably well. You have to realise that 4x4 Pandas wear their tyres faster than front wheel drive models anyway. Therefore, I feel that winter tyres are a suitable fit for the UK.
Another thought. There are concerns about four wheel drive vehicles with unequal tyre wear experiencing drive train damage. I don't believe this would be a problem if the tyres on one axle had 6mm of tread and those on the other axle had full tread. It is a good idea, however, to swap tyres from front to back and vice versa every 6,000 miles to even out tyre wear.
Yet another thought. Why was only one front tyre worn to the legal limit? There may be an issue with steering geometry settings, not unusual with the Panda and this might need adjusting. Speak to a reputable tyre dealer about this. Oh, and don't buy your tyres at a Fiat dealer, you will usually get a better deal and range at a tyre specialist.
Sorry for the long-winded reply but tyres are complicated and there is often a lot of controversy regarding them.
Vredestein Quatrac 2 tyres rule, without a doubt! Look at the dealer locator on their website http://www.vredestein.co.uk/ and contact them about supply!
Yes, rather a fan of Quatrac2's myself.
Another vote for the Quadtrac2's here
Also a fan of the Vredestein Quatrac II, but on needing new tyres myself recently, found they are no longer available and have been replaced by the (supposedly even better!) Quatrac III -- these are all-year-round tyres, ideal for the 4x4 as they give summer grip on mud or grass, winter grip on snow, and good all-year round grip on tarmac. Expect to pay about £60 per wheel, fitted.
Pete
Pete
Susie
If you fancy some reading, check this earlier post (this link starts at post 33 to save you having to go all the way through it!)
Pete
https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/207163-4x4-tyres-wheels-new-shape-3.html?p=2518081
If you fancy some reading, check this earlier post (this link starts at post 33 to save you having to go all the way through it!)
Pete
https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/207163-4x4-tyres-wheels-new-shape-3.html?p=2518081
Susie,
I wouldn't worry too much about Fiat approval, they will only test tyres every few years, or maybe even just at the launch of a new model. Pirelli won;t commit themselves in case of any future liability. Just because they are later Pirellis they may not be similar tread design, compound or wear rate - they may be no better a match to the rear tyres than fitting Michelins or Vredsteins.
Why to Fiat fit winter tyres ? - easy answer is because they want tyres that have an offroad ability for those people, like yourself, that regularly have to deal with mud as well as snow in colder months. Sadly mud and snow treaded/compounded tyres also tend to be winter tyres. Summer tyres tend to be more performance orientated, and hence are awful in cold and snowy conditions. Fit summer tyres and try to cross a wet muddy field - you'll be going nowhere fast !
All season tyres are a good baalnce and i'd suggest if you want to get improved life/reduced wear then these may be a better option. All depends on how muddy your conditions are - if you have to access hill farms up sloppy rutted tracks then they might be a compromised, but if its just muddy rural roads and a farmyard then all season will be fine.
However - i suggest you don;'t mix winter tyres at the rear with all season tyres at the front, their charactersitcs may be completely different and result in an awful handling balance.
So you have a choice - change all tyres to all-season ones such as the Wredstein Quatrac 3 or fit two 'winter' tyres to the front. The problem with winter tyres is that they aren't popular in the UK, and the tyre manufacturers in Europe only make them in September - December when demand is high (winter tyres a legal requirement in some euro countries), so sourcing them can be tricky. The biggest suoplier on winter tyres i know of is www.mytyres.co.uk who have a wide range listed, and are probably better placed than anyone in terms of stock/sourcing tyres for you.
I wouldn't worry too much about Fiat approval, they will only test tyres every few years, or maybe even just at the launch of a new model. Pirelli won;t commit themselves in case of any future liability. Just because they are later Pirellis they may not be similar tread design, compound or wear rate - they may be no better a match to the rear tyres than fitting Michelins or Vredsteins.
Why to Fiat fit winter tyres ? - easy answer is because they want tyres that have an offroad ability for those people, like yourself, that regularly have to deal with mud as well as snow in colder months. Sadly mud and snow treaded/compounded tyres also tend to be winter tyres. Summer tyres tend to be more performance orientated, and hence are awful in cold and snowy conditions. Fit summer tyres and try to cross a wet muddy field - you'll be going nowhere fast !
All season tyres are a good baalnce and i'd suggest if you want to get improved life/reduced wear then these may be a better option. All depends on how muddy your conditions are - if you have to access hill farms up sloppy rutted tracks then they might be a compromised, but if its just muddy rural roads and a farmyard then all season will be fine.
However - i suggest you don;'t mix winter tyres at the rear with all season tyres at the front, their charactersitcs may be completely different and result in an awful handling balance.
So you have a choice - change all tyres to all-season ones such as the Wredstein Quatrac 3 or fit two 'winter' tyres to the front. The problem with winter tyres is that they aren't popular in the UK, and the tyre manufacturers in Europe only make them in September - December when demand is high (winter tyres a legal requirement in some euro countries), so sourcing them can be tricky. The biggest suoplier on winter tyres i know of is www.mytyres.co.uk who have a wide range listed, and are probably better placed than anyone in terms of stock/sourcing tyres for you.
Hils Tranter
New member
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- Nov 4, 2017
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Hello. I have a green diesel Fiat Panda 4 wheel drive 2013 which I love, but wonder whether it was such a good purchase.
I have to drive down a very bumpy lane and I have split a tyre twice in a year and was shocked to find I needed to buy a pair of tyres.
My garage chap said "why did you buy a four wheel drive?"
I also had a slow puncture and had to replace that tyre – but only the one.
It's also a pain that you don't have a spare tyre you can replace, so you are dependent on a garage to help. Something to do with the balancing of the four wheel drive? Though I think mine was ok as I stopped and didn't drive it anywhere.
And being a Saturday my local garage don't seem to be open.
I really need to get my head around this and understand it.
I am devoid of any car know how and any info to help explain would be v helpful, eg.
1. replacing a pair of tyres – is this to do with front and back?
2. is there no way I could carry a spare tyre, or have one at home that i could replace myself?
3. wheel balance? how do I know if it needs it or not
I live in a rural area, so I am dependent on the car.
Any info or links to something I can read up would be much appreciated.
Thank you, Hils
I have to drive down a very bumpy lane and I have split a tyre twice in a year and was shocked to find I needed to buy a pair of tyres.
My garage chap said "why did you buy a four wheel drive?"
I also had a slow puncture and had to replace that tyre – but only the one.
It's also a pain that you don't have a spare tyre you can replace, so you are dependent on a garage to help. Something to do with the balancing of the four wheel drive? Though I think mine was ok as I stopped and didn't drive it anywhere.
And being a Saturday my local garage don't seem to be open.
I really need to get my head around this and understand it.
I am devoid of any car know how and any info to help explain would be v helpful, eg.
1. replacing a pair of tyres – is this to do with front and back?
2. is there no way I could carry a spare tyre, or have one at home that i could replace myself?
3. wheel balance? how do I know if it needs it or not
I live in a rural area, so I am dependent on the car.
Any info or links to something I can read up would be much appreciated.
Thank you, Hils
- Joined
- May 10, 2010
- Messages
- 2,669
- Points
- 799
The 4x4 system works via a viscous coupling between the front and rear axles, it's commonly referred to as torque on demand.
This coupling works automatically, it detects how much power is being transmitted and as torque on the rear prop shaft increases, the oil in the coupling heats and expands, causing plates to grip and lock together inside coupling so then it can transmit the torque through it to the rear axle.
The front and rear diffs are open diffs similar to most cars. (though some 4x4 models come with a "mock" diff lock called ELD that uses the ABS and traction control system to brake slipping wheels thus sending torque to the other wheel on that axle)
With a two wheel drive car, odd size wheels aren't a big issue as the open diff can allow the wheels on the driven axle to spin at different speeds, it needs to do this otherwise you'll never get around corners.
Trouble with these torque on demand systems is now the rear axle is connected.
An odd size wheel/tyre on an axle puts the coupling and the associated connecting shafts under strain.
Though the opens diffs can cope side to side, it can't cope to well front to back.
Off road when wheel grip is low, it's not too much of and issue if they all start slipping and sliding at different speeds, but on tarmac with grip on all corners, it can put too much strain back through the coupling and shafts.
Some cars have had real issues with this system, like the Merc GLC.
They seem so sensitive that one new tyre, which is ever so slightly larger than the other three slightly worn ones, causes the other three to hop and jump as they struggle to keep up with the larger one, damaging the drivechain, so Merc recommend you replace them in pairs.
As far as I can tell (I own one), the Panda 4x4 seems to be able to handle a single new tyre as long at it's the same size.
So you really need a spare wheel with the same circumference as your standard wheels.
They are available but you also need the extended jack as the 4x4 is higher up.
Fiat sell them, but they are cheaper here
https://www.thewheelshop.co.uk/
As I don't know what wheel/tyre size your car is, I can't pinpoint the actual spare wheel/tyre, but if you find your wheel/tyre size in your handbook, it should also tell you the size of the spare you need.
In regards to wheel balance, a wheel and tyre should be balanced whenever the tyre is fitted to the rim or if there are wheel vibrations (usually caused by losing a wheel weight) it should be rechecked.
Tyre fitters should do this as a matter of course when fitting on a machine, it only takes a few moments.
This coupling works automatically, it detects how much power is being transmitted and as torque on the rear prop shaft increases, the oil in the coupling heats and expands, causing plates to grip and lock together inside coupling so then it can transmit the torque through it to the rear axle.
The front and rear diffs are open diffs similar to most cars. (though some 4x4 models come with a "mock" diff lock called ELD that uses the ABS and traction control system to brake slipping wheels thus sending torque to the other wheel on that axle)
With a two wheel drive car, odd size wheels aren't a big issue as the open diff can allow the wheels on the driven axle to spin at different speeds, it needs to do this otherwise you'll never get around corners.
Trouble with these torque on demand systems is now the rear axle is connected.
An odd size wheel/tyre on an axle puts the coupling and the associated connecting shafts under strain.
Though the opens diffs can cope side to side, it can't cope to well front to back.
Off road when wheel grip is low, it's not too much of and issue if they all start slipping and sliding at different speeds, but on tarmac with grip on all corners, it can put too much strain back through the coupling and shafts.
Some cars have had real issues with this system, like the Merc GLC.
They seem so sensitive that one new tyre, which is ever so slightly larger than the other three slightly worn ones, causes the other three to hop and jump as they struggle to keep up with the larger one, damaging the drivechain, so Merc recommend you replace them in pairs.
As far as I can tell (I own one), the Panda 4x4 seems to be able to handle a single new tyre as long at it's the same size.
So you really need a spare wheel with the same circumference as your standard wheels.
They are available but you also need the extended jack as the 4x4 is higher up.
Fiat sell them, but they are cheaper here
https://www.thewheelshop.co.uk/
As I don't know what wheel/tyre size your car is, I can't pinpoint the actual spare wheel/tyre, but if you find your wheel/tyre size in your handbook, it should also tell you the size of the spare you need.
In regards to wheel balance, a wheel and tyre should be balanced whenever the tyre is fitted to the rim or if there are wheel vibrations (usually caused by losing a wheel weight) it should be rechecked.
Tyre fitters should do this as a matter of course when fitting on a machine, it only takes a few moments.
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4x4 Audis need all four tyres changing if one gets damaged so think yourself lucky.
As for the lane - you'll just have to go slower or get out there with some rubble an/or a pickaxe to deal with sharp rocks and potholes.
As for the lane - you'll just have to go slower or get out there with some rubble an/or a pickaxe to deal with sharp rocks and potholes.
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4x4 Audis need all four tyres changing if one gets damaged so think yourself lucky.
As for the lane - you'll just have to go slower
or get out there with some rubble an/or a pickaxe to deal with sharp rocks and potholes.
As for the lane - you'll just have to go slower
or get out there with some rubble an/or a pickaxe to deal with sharp rocks and potholes.- Joined
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I once took out a tyre on a pothole. But to be fair to the tyre I was forced well to the left by an oncoming driver using too much road and had to go though a large puddle at the gutter (never a good idea). Sure enough there was a gaping hole in the tarmac. I collected a bent wheel and ripped the tyre. Thankfully the rear tyre and wheel survived.
