Technical Powerloss Ducato MJ130 2012, Historic problems with DPF regen

[niceup]

Hi together,

I own a Ducato MJ130 2.3L 131 PS from 2012 with DPF. I bought it 1 year ago and had following problems from the day I bought it:

- white blueish smoke during DPF regen (no coolant, unburnt diesel)

At the shop they changed the EGR and changed 2 glow plugs (other 2 could not be removed). This unfortunately did not help, but worsen the situation.

After driving a bit (always longer trips, > 100 km) again white smoke appeared during DPF regen. After another trip without white smoke (= no DPF regen) the engine check lamp & limp mode activated.
I checked DPF differential pressure (very high > 150 mbar) and boost pressure (non existant). After a manual DPF regen (NO white smoke?!) the differential pressure went back to normal values (idle around 5 mbar), but after driving a bit turbo was still not working and Engine check light went on again with error P0236-7A and DPF differential pressure increased a lot during a 40 km trip.

Error codes currently:
P0236-7A Air supply circuit anomaly
P0683-13 Preheating glow plugs signal

One thing I wonder about: Atmospheric pressure is always around 950 mbar, which is in my opinion too low?

First quick check of pressure the low pressure tube going to turbo looks fine.

Going uphill I can only drive around 45 mph, on flat streets around 80 mph

Do you have any ideas why and what has to be done?

Thanks in advance!

 

[bugsymike]

Hi together,

I own a Ducato MJ130 2.3L 131 PS from 2012 with DPF. I bought it 1 year ago and had following problems from the day I bought it:

- white blueish smoke during DPF regen (no coolant, unburnt diesel)

At the shop they changed the EGR and changed 2 glow plugs (other 2 could not be removed). This unfortunately did not help, but worsen the situation.

After driving a bit (always longer trips, > 100 km) again white smoke appeared during DPF regen. After another trip without white smoke (= no DPF regen) the engine check lamp & limp mode activated.
I checked DPF differential pressure (very high > 150 mbar) and boost pressure (non existant). After a manual DPF regen (NO white smoke?!) the differential pressure went back to normal values (idle around 5 mbar), but after driving a bit turbo was still not working and Engine check light went on again with error P0236-7A and DPF differential pressure increased a lot during a 40 km trip.

Error codes currently:
P0236-7A Air supply circuit anomaly
P0683-13 Preheating glow plugs signal

One thing I wonder about: Atmospheric pressure is always around 950 mbar, which is in my opinion too low?

First quick check of pressure the low pressure tube going to turbo looks fine.

Going uphill I can only drive around 45 mph, on flat streets around 80 mph

Do you have any ideas why and what has to be done?

Thanks in advance!

As I understand it, the full heater plug operation is required to assist in the REGEN operation, it may not be the total answer but certainly not helping.
I would first warm engine up fully, put a whole bottle of DPF cleaner additive in nearly full tank of fuel then go straight away for a run of at least 30 miles on a dual carriageway so no stops and try and keep engine revs between 2000rpm and 3000rpm so it is working hard.
This will give the engine the best chance of fixing it's self.
If unsuccessful you will probably end up needin a new DPF filter going by your DPF pressure readings.
Incidentally I understand there was a history of some of these having faulty DPF pressure sensors, to the point where it was the first "go to" for Fiat mechanics.
May be worth testing if your diagnostics can do that.
I use this stuff and once working put in half a bottle with every tankfull of fuel.
Many modern diesels are only used for short slow speed trips which is the worst thing to get a ECU to activate a DPF Regen.

 

[lycopersicum]

Interesting, I bought a 2013 Ducato that was also sold with a glow plug issue and its DPF failed very shortly afterwards, same symptoms, intermittent white smoke and eventually engine light and limp mode.

But I cannot see any mention of glow plugs being involved in regen in elearn...

In my case the DPF couldn't be saved, forced regen and cleaning only lasted ~800km. Eventually the engine would start up fine but die after two seconds, with the throttle unresponsive.

I had no turbo related problems so I suspect you may have another fault besides the DPF.

 

[bugsymike]

Interesting, I bought a 2013 Ducato that was also sold with a glow plug issue and its DPF failed very shortly afterwards, same symptoms, intermittent white smoke and eventually engine light and limp mode.

But I cannot see any mention of glow plugs being involved in regen in elearn...

In my case the DPF couldn't be saved, forced regen and cleaning only lasted ~800km.

I had no turbo related problems so I suspect you may have another fault besides the DPF.

Can't say for sure if relevant on OPs model, but Online :- "But did you know that glow plugs are also essential for exhaust gas cleaning and low emissions? Or that they play a role in preventing clogging of the exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) valve? They even help with regenerating the diesel particle filter (DPF)".
So certainly for same makes of vehicle.

 

[lycopersicum]

Can't say for sure if relevant on OPs model, but Online :- "But did you know that glow plugs are also essential for exhaust gas cleaning and low emissions? Or that they play a role in preventing clogging of the exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) valve? They even help with regenerating the diesel particle filter (DPF)".
So certainly for same makes of vehicle.

Curious if this was a factor in my DPF's demise.

In hindsight, I wish I had paid for a new DPF right away, instead of wasting money attempting to have it cleaned, and dealing with the stress of repeated breakdowns. But your mileage may vary.

 

[niceup]

Curious if this was a factor in my DPF's demise.

In hindsight, I wish I had paid for a new DPF right away, instead of wasting money attempting to have it cleaned, and dealing with the stress of repeated breakdowns. But your mileage may vary.

Meaning in the end you exchanged the DPF and your vehicle now behaves as expected?
And you are still getting the glow plugs errors?

Did you buy a brand new DPF or a used and refurbished?

According to a DPF refurbisher they should come out almost new, but this might be marketing. I have the fear that buying a new DPF will lead to the same problems down the road because the root cause might not be fixed.

I will try out bugsymikes approach and if it not works I will try to get the the glow plugs changed, the turbo issue fixed and then see what awaits me.
..

 

[lycopersicum]

Meaning in the end you exchanged the DPF and your vehicle now behaves as expected?
And you are still getting the glow plugs errors?

Did you buy a brand new DPF or a used and refurbished?

According to a DPF refurbisher they should come out almost new, but this might be marketing. I have the fear that buying a new DPF will lead to the same problems down the road because the root cause might not be fixed.

I will try out bugsymikes approach and if it not works I will try to get the the glow plugs changed, the turbo issue fixed and then see what awaits me.
..

I got a brand new one and also got the glow plugs fixed. Since then 35,000 km without issue, I watch the soot load religiously, take it to the highway when it's time to regen.

First mechanic tried a forced regen with a cleaning product (unclear if a fuel additive or something that goes directly in the DPF). Second mechanic tried to run it through their specialized cleaning machine but said it was too far gone.

If they're not charging too much for a professional refurbishment it might be worth a try, but it seems the chances of success are better when the DPF isn't totally ruined yet.

 

[niceup]

Ok it seems like my turbo is dead because the bolt for steering(?) it broke.
They will now change the turbo and then I will check again.....
Glow plugs will be left untouched because I am too greedy to do everything at once. Not sure if that is the correct tactics tho

It is crazy that the ****ing turbo dies during all cars other problems.

 

[bugsymike]

Ok it seems like my turbo is dead because the bolt for steering(?) it broke.
They will now change the turbo and then I will check again.....
Glow plugs will be left untouched because I am too greedy to do everything at once. Not sure if that is the correct tactics tho

It is crazy that the ****ing turbo dies during all cars other problems.

It can be related if DPF blocked exhaust gas temp can rise putting more stress on turbo etc.

 

[niceup]

Now after changing the turbo, car runs as usual. I haven't driven a lot, so I will keep you posted about the white smoke.

 

[niceup]

We did a 5000 km trip to Norway and did not have any white smoke or engineight problems until 250 km from home on our way back.
In Norway we mostly drove in small streets below 80 kmh and with lots of accelerations.

Before the white smoke reappeared we did around 800 km on the Autobahn with speed around 90 to 110. After a few smoke blows the engine light turned on and low power. Deleting it did not solve the problem, I had to manually regen the DPF to make it home. Seems like that helps.
During the smoke events I recognized that, when pushing the gas pedal to the ground the acceleration shortly stops, white smoke stops and the dashboard looks almost like it restarts (no extra warning lights and dashboard stays on, but some messages appear again, eg. Cruise control state gets reported)

 

[bugsymike]

We did a 5000 km trip to Norway and did not have any white smoke or engineight problems until 250 km from home on our way back.
In Norway we mostly drove in small streets below 80 kmh and with lots of accelerations.

Before the white smoke reappeared we did around 800 km on the Autobahn with speed around 90 to 110. After a few smoke blows the engine light turned on and low power. Deleting it did not solve the problem, I had to manually regen the DPF to make it home. Seems like that helps.
During the smoke events I recognized that, when pushing the gas pedal to the ground the acceleration shortly stops, white smoke stops and the dashboard looks almost like it restarts (no extra warning lights and dashboard stays on, but some messages appear again, eg. Cruise control state gets reported)

"In Norway we mostly drove in small streets below 80 kmh and with lots of accelerations."
This will not work to clean DPF!
ON and off the accelerator is no good, it must be constant revs so engine working hard.
Your issue does seem to be related to DPF blockage, if it continues you may end up damaging the new turbo!
If it was me I would try with engine fully warmed up, a full bottle of DPF cleaner additive in the fuel tank of at least half a tank full, then go on an uninterupted drive of at least 30 miles with vehicle in a slightly lower gear , so engine revs stay constant between 2000rpm and 3000 rpm.
Engine coolant temp. must be around 90 degrees Centigrade (middle of gauge) for this to work.
This will give the ECU and engine it's best chance of cleaning the DPF, failing that I suspect a new DPF will be required.
I have done this with a few vehicles and fixed the issue, however half a bottle of the additive with every subsequent tank full of fuel and the same 30 mile drive at those revs is then required to keep the issue at bay at least once a month.
Basically modern diesels with DPF systems are unsuited for slow driving as they don't self clean the DPF!
By the way have all the Glow plugs been changed now as they are used in the DPF Regen process and need to be functioning correctly?

 

[lycopersicum]

We did a 5000 km trip to Norway and did not have any white smoke or engineight problems until 250 km from home on our way back.
In Norway we mostly drove in small streets below 80 kmh and with lots of accelerations.

Before the white smoke reappeared we did around 800 km on the Autobahn with speed around 90 to 110. After a few smoke blows the engine light turned on and low power. Deleting it did not solve the problem, I had to manually regen the DPF to make it home. Seems like that helps.
During the smoke events I recognized that, when pushing the gas pedal to the ground the acceleration shortly stops, white smoke stops and the dashboard looks almost like it restarts (no extra warning lights and dashboard stays on, but some messages appear again, eg. Cruise control state gets reported)

I also had the brief drop in acceleration and cruise control messages immediately afterwards, though not necessarily linked to pushing hard on the gas.

It wasn't a reset of the dashboard in my case just the cruise control getting disabled as if I had turned the knob on the stalk, but with the light still on.

Your remaining symptoms seem identical to mine which were fully cured by a new DPF (+ one injector replaced, still not sure if that was necessary as the workshop that did the repair also pushed to replace some OEM sensors that I ended up putting back in afterwards, as they were fine and the replacements were junk).

 

[lycopersicum]

"In Norway we mostly drove in small streets below 80 kmh and with lots of accelerations."
This will not work to clean DPF!
ON and off the accelerator is no good, it must be constant revs so engine working hard.
Your issue does seem to be related to DPF blockage, if it continues you may end up damaging the new turbo!
If it was me I would try with engine fully warmed up, a full bottle of DPF cleaner additive in the fuel tank of at least half a tank full, then go on an uninterupted drive of at least 30 miles with vehicle in a slightly lower gear , so engine revs stay constant between 2000rpm and 3000 rpm.
Engine coolant temp. must be around 90 degrees Centigrade (middle of gauge) for this to work.
This will give the ECU and engine it's best chance of cleaning the DPF, failing that I suspect a new DPF will be required.
I have done this with a few vehicles and fixed the issue, however half a bottle of the additive with every subsequent tank full of fuel and the same 30 mile drive at those revs is then required to keep the issue at bay at least once a month.
Basically modern diesels with DPF systems are unsuited for slow driving as they don't self clean the DPF!
By the way have all the Glow plugs been changed now as they are used in the DPF Regen process and need to be functioning correctly?

My observation with the same model is...

- there is no possibility of passive regen as the temperatures barely reach 400°C on the most punishing climbs.

- active regen doesn't need the engine to be working hard it just needs uninterrupted smooth driving above 60 km/h. No need to go much above 2000-2500 rpm. The ECU will do the rest. Once initiated, hard acceleration, high engine loads reduce the regen temperatures and should be avoided if possible. Stop and go messes up the process completely though it can tolerate a brief slow down (this will cause smoke though).

 

[niceup]

I have not done the 2 remaining glow plugs, but might consider it.
Changing the DPF is expensive, and first I want to eliminate the root causes. According to the mechanic who did the cleaning of DPF the DPF itself looks fine.

What is active and passive regen?

 

[lycopersicum]

I have not done the 2 remaining glow plugs, but might consider it.
Changing the DPF is expensive, and first I want to eliminate the root causes. According to the mechanic who did the cleaning of DPF the DPF itself looks fine.

What is active and passive regen?

Passive regen is when normal driving gets the exhaust hot enough to burn the soot off. It basically only happens on large trucks.

Active regen is when the ECU artificially increases the exhaust temperature by injecting extra fuel, post-injection gets burned in the cylinder, after-injection gets burned in the catalytic converter.

I hear you about the DPF being expensive but what if it's the root cause? Yours has a high mileage, they don't last more than 250,000 km in the best of conditions, much less when driven in a way that hampers active regen. At 180,000 and with a history of high differential pressure I'd be surprised if it's really fine.