Technical Poor starting Panda.....

[mpin9020]

Hi all,
I recently bought a 56 plate Panda Dynamic. 32k miles, full Fiat service history and in pretty good condition. Just recently and since the colder weather arrived, it has become an absolute pig to start. It usually takes about 3 attempts to get the thing to run and requires a bit of throttle tweaking to get the engine speed to stabilise. Also and at the same time, the trip computer and clock reset themselves to 00. Very odd! I read in various posts that the MAP sensor could be at fault here but would this necessarily blitz the trip computer as well?
Even more curiously after a successful start and with the engine running for a minute or so, everything seems normal.
The car was serviced quite recently with fresh oil, filters, fluids and plugs and is currently giving around 35mpg around town and 50 on a long run. Throttle response is good with no issues noticed.
I have done the 'battery disconnect' trick to reset the ECU but that doesn't seem to have made much difference.
I don't want to go 'finger poking' and messing around with multi connectors just yet as these can be quite easily damaged in the current cold weather.
Any advice would be very welcome as a perfectly good car is being ruined by what is probably a silly fault.
Over to you........

 

[homeward]

Have you tested the battery (or had it tested...)? That would be my first port of call.... It's fairly typical for a battery, close to the end of its life, to give up the ghost in this kind of weather....

Welcome to the Forum, by the way...!

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Battery sounds like it is on its last legs, this is what will be causing the trip to reset and probably the starting issues. I'm surprised your EPS hasn't startd failing. Might be worth hacking the battery terminal connections first mind.

 

[mpin9020]

By 'eck, those were rapid responses... thanks!
I had the battery out a few weeks ago to do the ECU reset and to clean the tray from debris. The 'magic eye' on the battery indicates that it is / was fully charged. I have also cleaned up the battery terminals and given them a good dose of Vaseline. The cranking speed is up to scratch but there again, if the starter is taking most of the amps perhaps there isn't enough left for the other electronics... hence the reset. Possible perhaps?????
I am hoping to get a loan of an ECU analyser over the weekend so I may well see if there are any error codes stored. Mind you, I won't have a clue which code refers to what. Help on that one please....
Will let you know in due course!

 

[panda panda]

Modern batteries are pigs, the last two that have literally died on me have given no trouble until the last few turns of the key. They go from working ok to catastrophic failure at an alarming rate and usually they look like new too. You can get a bosch battery delivered for under £35. so I wouldn't go looking for another cause until a new/known good battery has been tried on your vehicle. Good Luck

 

[mpin9020]

Well, now on to plan B. Tried a replacement battery but still the same result. This weekend I intend to start cleaning as many of the multiplug connectors as I can find and run a diagnostics test on the ECU with a hope that I might find some error codes stored. Will pass any useful info on as it may be of use to somebody with a similar problem.
Oh what I would give for a nice simple car.....!

 

[panda panda]

I note you said recently bought, did the vehicle come with a warranty or was it a private sale?

Either way I would be contacting the seller about this issue unless it was mentioned at the time of sale.

 

[mpin9020]

You very rarely get a warranty on anything under 5k round here. Yes, it was a dealer who was clearing out some trade ins so was a sold as seen item. I test drove it with no problems and the only downside was it was almost mot expired (which the dealer sorted), needed 2 new tyres (I sorted) and was due a major service. The price was very good also. The fault has developed since I have been using it so I don't really have any complaint it's just very annoying...!
Will keep you posted....

 

[panda panda]

I would at least ask the dealer to identify the fault as a gesture of goodwill. No harm in asking

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

You very rarely get a warranty on anything under 5k round here. Yes, it was a dealer who was clearing out some trade ins so was a sold as seen item. I test drove it with no problems and the only downside was it was almost mot expired (which the dealer sorted), needed 2 new tyres (I sorted) and was due a major service. The price was very good also. The fault has developed since I have been using it so I don't really have any complaint it's just very annoying...!
Will keep you posted....

No such thing as sold as seen. Dealer still liable if very recently purchased, check your consumer rights

Any of it paid on a credit card out of interest?

 

[mpin9020]

Slight delay on the update, the usual Xmas rush has taken priority.......
Testing done on Sunday using an ECU code reader.

1. Plugged in and ran the reader = No error codes stored
2. Disconnect and re-connect all multiplugs associated with MAP TPS and a few others not directly identifiable = No errors flagged
3. Give all above plugs a liberal dose of WD and reconnect once again = No errors
4. Try engine start..... same problem as before.
5. Disconnect MAP multiplug and start engine = Engine starts although a bit lumpy to start with... !!!!
6. Time for a headache.
7. Reconnect MAP multiplug = Same as before, engine reluctant to start and 2 errors flagged up. MAP and intake temp.
8. Conclusion = MAP sensor is kaput and sending spurious values to the ECU.

The original MAP sensor is a Bosch unit which is apparently no longer available. The nearest equivalent is (I think he said) a Ducellier which is the princely sum of £82 + vat.... and will take around 2 weeks to source. Motor factors will be closing for their Xmas break you see.
I have scoured the internet for the part and there seems to be plenty available for around £15 to £25 depending on where you go. I will be checking the part No. on the car in due course to see if I can find the equivalent. In the meantime I intend to take the sensor off the inlet manifold and give it a good clean and general checkover.
PS. Decided to use the car yesterday to do a bit of shopping and it started first time. Yesterday was of course, much warmer than recently!
Will again update in time.......

 

[mpin9020]

Had a spare hour this morning so I thought I would remove the sensor and have a look at it to see if there was any obvious damage. Surprisingly the sensor end was covered with a black sticky deposit. Looks like the air cleaner wasn't doing its job properly. Inside the sensor end there is a tiny yellow bulb type structure (also covered with muck) which looks to me like a temperature sensor.... probably a thermocouple of some kind. This was also CAREFULLY cleaned with a good squirt of WD40.
All has now been re-assembled and we will see how things go over the next few weeks. If the problem returns, then the unit will be replaced.

 

[mpin9020]

Well, it's back to the drawing board on this one. In spite of the new MAP sensor the car is still reluctant to start. All the same symptoms as before only this time the temp gauge flicks up to HOT and then returns to COLD when starting for the first attempt.
I am wondering if there are any other temperature sensors in the engine which may be at fault as the whole problem seems to be centred around temperature, either ambient or engine. I see from various forums that some engines are fitted with a dual purpose coolant / engine sensor where the dashboard temp gauge is coupled to the ECU for fuel enrichment purposes during cold startups. Can't find any definitive details though. So, over to any of you out there; is there a CTS fitted to the Panda and if so, where is it and what does it look like?

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Temp guage hitting max then going to the bottom again is normally a software issue on the ECU. Plenty of info on it happening in the GP's in the GP section

 

[jrkitching]

Poor starting on a 7yr old car is often down to gradually weakening electrics - so if a new battery & set of plugs has been fitted, coil packs & ignition leads would be next on my hit list of suspects.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Poor starting on a 7yr old car is often down to gradually weakening electrics - so if a new battery & set of plugs has been fitted, coil packs & ignition leads would be next on my hit list of suspects.

I'd have said earthing and earth strap(s) first.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Also worth checking and cleaning the blades of the connectors to the coolant sensor (and others too while at it). My Multipla gave all sorts of odd 'ECU-like' problems, most of which wer solved by cleaning green corrosion from the connectors with a fibreglass contact cleaning 'pen' (http://www.maplin.co.uk/abrasive-fibreglass-pencil-3932).

Edit: Ah, missed that you've already tried the various connectors. However, WD40 wont shift corrosion, but that fibreglass pencil will

 

[mpin9020]

Picked up the thread on the temp gauge issues just after I wrote the last post. Probably a software bug in the system somewhere. I can't see that is relevant as it doesn't always do it so it's probably a random issue. No action on that one until the next service me thinks.
As for ignition problems, I had coil pack and lead problems on a Ford some years ago and that was giving big problems during acceleration.That was fairly easy to diagnose as I could hear the spark flashing over and there was lots of evidence if plug tracking and burnt plug terminals. No evidence of this on the Panda. Battery is good but I will do an alternator charge check this weekend..... if it's not snowing!
More frustating is that I have just taken the car over to the town with no issues whatsoever. Started ok, idled ok when it warmed up etc etc. Of course the outside temp today is +11C.
This really is a temperature issue !!! I am at a loss to think otherwise.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Picked up the thread on the temp gauge issues just after I wrote the last post. Probably a software bug in the system somewhere. I can't see that is relevant as it doesn't always do it so it's probably a random issue.

A software fault won't make an issue repetitive, it'll only happen when certain conditions occour a lot of the time, most of these are not conditions you'll pick up on though!

 

[mpin9020]

Haven't been able to do very much this past few weeks due to the cold and my cold! However, today I did a voltage drop test (across the battery terminals, not entirely kosher I know but....) and during cranking the voltage drops to around 7.5 volts ! Now I don't know if 7.5 volts is enough to power up the ECU so could this be the root of all the problems? By comparison I checked my other car using the same test method (has a new 65ah battery recently fitted) and the voltage dropped only to 10.3 volts even though it hadn't been used for a few days and it was only +3c outside.
I am a little surprised that this 'drop' wasn't picked up on the battery test the garage did as it would certainly have raised a few questions over the battery's condition in my mind.
Any thoughts..... and do I go and get a new battery?
I will be borrowing the new battery from my other car and doing a cold start in the next few days, just to satisfy my curiosity!