Tuning Panda as a road/track car

[smokeme]

Yeah, fair enough. The modern FIRE turbo engines make what you were trying to do to FIRE engines years ago child's play now. And if you know simple electronics, they're cheap to implement too! I just put one in an Uno for £700.

not really, most of the information i gathered at the time is still useful today and 200bhp per litre still requires skill to achieve. the only difference nowadays is that most people do it for bragging rights while i did it as a research project into unexplored territory..

The 16vt engine and gearbox is huge and not really good for a Panda.

Well, dont get me wrong, it is possible but you need a lot of time and fabrication skills. Plus you need to be able to completely destroy your Panda - so make sure its rotten and worthless first!

Anyway here's the dilemma with the 16vt.

The distance from the side engine mount to the gerbox mount is the same as the distance between the top of the Panda strut towers. So just the 16vt engine and box have to fit where usually your Panda engine and gearbox is already mounted with driveshafts. To overcome this you need 4 inches extra width (at each side) in the engine bay, which means moving your strut towers, which means re-aligning your car etc etc AKA not much fun anymore.

Another problem is that if you managed to do it another way like cut the engine into the R/H wing and sit the gearbox in the same place as the Panda gearbox, the final drive would stick out so far that you probably wouldn't be able to get 1/2 a turn on your steering before it hit the final drive.

Then I realised that I was going to get 250bhp from all this effort when a good U/T or a Punto GT engine conversion could get the same power with half the weight and half the effort.

Now if anybody has any good ideas about brake upgrades I'm listening.....

Smokeme, tell me about your Panda. What power did you put through it? How did it bend the chassis?

250bhp for a 16vt is easy to achieve on a stock engine, just cranking up the boost will get you more then that on a stock series 2 thema, the coupe with a more advanced ecu will only require a chip.. stock internals will hold about 320bhp, forged and the wallet is the limit

my panda had a 999cc 8v that suffered a few alterations, basically forged internals and turbocharger.. last test went a bit over 200bhp before i removed the engine from the car, self imposed rev limit was at 8000rpm but it would go higher, total run time for the project was a bit over 10kkm.. engine has no signs of wear and when i find a suitable chassis it may get another chance.. all of that going through a stock 750cl 4speed gearbox that only had shotpeened internals, the engine would hit 8000rpm in 4th gear a bit over 200kph faster then a stock panda get to 100kph..

had serious problems with wheelspin, even with slicks it would spin in 4th gear over 4000rpm if the throttle was floored..
it was a fun project, not very fuel efficient, very hard to run it at the limits but worth every minute i spent on it.

 

[lewey]

not really, most of the information i gathered at the time is still useful today and 200bhp per litre still requires skill to achieve. the only difference nowadays is that most people do it for bragging rights while i did it as a research project into unexplored territory..

I realised my comments might have looked like I was poo-pooing your achievements. I agree your methods are still valid and interesting and to go near 200BHP per litre is a big achievement. I just think that now many people are able to achieve up to 250HP (180HP per litre) with a 1368cc FIRE and a larger turbo with no other modifications, they won't be so inclined to venture into any more involved tuning like you did.

 

[smokeme]

I realised my comments might have looked like I was poo-pooing your achievements. I agree your methods are still valid and interesting and to go near 200BHP per litre is a big achievement. I just think that now many people are able to achieve up to 250HP (180HP per litre) with a 1368cc FIRE and a larger turbo with no other modifications, they won't be so inclined to venture into any more involved tuning like you did.

yes but people are still going at it the wrong way, i tried to achieve the power goal through increasing efficiency while today they just increase boost to get there.. they have an extra 369cc of displacement and 8 extra valves not to mention a stock management capable of controling the whole thing all stock, in the end fiat has done all the homework..

honestly a tjet should be easily capable of passing the 300bhp with little problems with the right supporting mods..

i missed the time that driving a car on the edge required skill, the time where cars had the so called "soul".. new fiats are just plain grocery cars, i compare them to cheap vws.. abarth is no more then a badge today, most people with skill can easily dwarf the gains of an abarth while back then abarth was the edge, you needed a lot of skill just to match what they did stock..

very few people will know what i'm on about, most will be a lot older then i am

 

[alexbpl]

I must admit that I have read every one of your website articles at least 5 times over and learnt quite a few things from your stories. My personal favourite is the one about the stock 60bhp engine you managed to get to 360bhp

It's quite incredible how deeply you tuned the 999cc FIRE engine. It must have cost a fortune! That really is the only limiting factor thesedays. Finding and buying small performance parts can rack up thousands, then theres testing and god forbid if it blows up.

Thats why people nowdays settle for just increasing the engine size instead of making their existing engines more volumetrically efficient.

I would have liked to tune my 999cc FIRE engine actually, but instead I got the 1.2 16v.

What car projects have you got at the moment Smokeme?

 

[elbandito472]

Earning stripes is all very well, but the time, money and effort invloved in this is considerable for a small gain or potentially no gain depending on how good you are! I think it is a good idea to learn how engines work and tuning theory, but part of this is to choose the right solution in terms of engine size/type in the first place. Any decent mod you want to make or buy for the 999cc engine is going to be a lot or all of the way towards buying a more suitable 1.2 8v, 1.2 16v or even 1.4 16v engine.

For example, a tubular exhaust manifold for the 999cc is a great upgrade and might give you 3BHP and a noticable increase in torque. You could have bought a 1.2 16v engine for the cost and have doubled your power and torque at stroke and hardly even affected your fuel economy. Also many parts like manifolds, cam, internals, etc. you buy for your 999cc won't fit on a 16v engine that you will probably end up with if you persist with the desire to make the car quicker.

The Punto Mk1 1.2 16v is the one to go for due to it's easy to install electronics. Putting a more modern 1.2 16v or 1.4 16v engine in is even better, but requires confidence with engine electronics regardless of the route you take.

I know you probably already realised some of this and you just want cheap tune-up ideas. However, the long and short of it is there aren't any cheap tune-ups that will give you a difference that you would feel is "worth it". A free-flowing intake and cone filter will give you around 0HP. A Panda 4x4 cam is worth maybe 5HP, but will require you to be fairly adventurous to fit it for a beginner (which I am presuming you are if you are asking for advice).

Perhaps the most simple, cheap upgrade for you if you do want to go in stages is an 1108cc engine from a late Panda Selecta or a Cinquecento/Seicento Sporting. 55BHP and a good increase in torque more importantly. Take old engine out, put new one in, join all pipes back up. It might be just what you need to get baptised into working with the Panda. Once you've done it though, you might very quickly begin to think that you could have just put a 1.2 in for a very similar effort..

Hey Lewey, do you know if the cinq sporting engine will work with the standard panda marelli ecu? I think its Magnetti Marelli IAW 6F 5H ...if that helps. Cheers, Steve

 

[smokeme]

Hey Lewey, do you know if the cinq sporting engine will work with the standard panda marelli ecu? I think its Magnetti Marelli IAW 6F 5H ...if that helps. Cheers, Steve

with little mods it will even run the punto 60 mk1 engine, 1242cc 8v SPI..

 

[elbandito472]

with little mods it will even run the punto 60 mk1 engine, 1242cc 8v SPI..

Please tell how!!!!!

 

[smokeme]

Please tell how!!!!!

increased fuel pressure will get it to run decently.. will have problems if you have sniffer testing when not done correctly though..

easier to just swap in the stock ecu, only problem is the immo that needs removing.. sticking the chip to the antenna is the cheapest method..

 

[Mark0]

Hi guys, haven't been about for a week or so as my work has been mental, have been almost constantly on call, and as a result I think I may have missed the boat on the CLX I was looking at. Was a shame as it was only £300 with a really long MOT.

Looking hard for another one, any ideas where I might find one? Would love to have one before xmas.

This thread has got really interesting though, giving me a lot of food for thought, I appreciate all your advice

 

[rpmhead]

My top gasket went due to a upper coolant hose "explotion" so I want to upgrade my Panda from 999cc spi the easy way to 1242cc spi (Punto 60), maybe with a Punto 75 cam. Does anybody know if the ECU pinout is identical on the Panda spi (it's a Marelli with twin coil packs) and the Punto spi? Can I just swap them? If not, will the Panda ECU cope for use with the Punto 60 engine regarding fuel delivery and timing MAP?

 

[rpmhead]

Anyone, please? Is it possible to just replace the standard 999 Marelli ECU with a Cinq Sporting ECU without any modification of the cable loom?

I believe the Cinq Sporting ECU has got an more aggressive ignition MAP?

 

[lewey]

It may be possible, they are the same ECU model. You need to get hold of the pinouts for each type and compare, don't you? The Cinq ECU is for an 1108cc engine and I should think wouldn't run a 999cc engine well.

 

[rpmhead]

It may be possible, they are the same ECU model. You need to get hold of the pinouts for each type and compare, don't you? The Cinq ECU is for an 1108cc engine and I should think wouldn't run a 999cc engine well.

A wiring diagram of the ECU harness would be great but I don't know where to get the this... Any idea? I'm going to use the 1108 ECU to fuel and spark a 999 bottom end with 1108 head and 866 camshaft. I was hoping that this ECU could give the engine a bit more fuel and a more aggressive spark advance than the current 999 ECU..

Due to orginality (and less hassle) I want to use spi and the current Panda cable loom. Next step will be a 1242 bottom end with a 1108 head and Punto 60 spi unit and ECU.

I will have to buy the Punto 60 parts from a scrappy in another country as we don't have the Punto 60 model here in Norway...

 

[Fiatseicento2002]

Cant you cut the middle man out and just swap for a Punto 75 engine and ecu

 

[alexbpl]

You must be going for a world record of most different FIRE engine components in the same car.

Have you considered using a Mk1 Punto Sporting 1242 16v engine and ECU?

 

[rpmhead]

You sure got some points there. My plan was not to mess around with the Panda cable loom and keep it original for not have to replace the engine before every MOT. Punto 75 will mean immo issues, ECU in the engine compartment and some changes to the wiring. In the end that's maybe the best route to go rather than what I had in mind. Regarding the 16V, if I understand it correctly it will mean that I have to modify the heater box, which I don't really want to do...

My plan was that since 999 is the largest over-square FIRE engine then with a 1108 head (with 1,5mm larger intake valves compared to 999), a 866 cam and maybe a bigger throttlebody from Punto 60 that it would be very keen on revs. Regarding the spec on 1242 it looks on the paper like a quite long-thrower...?

 

[alexbpl]

Yeah that is true, you need to cut a small amount off the heater box to fit the large intake manifold.

Good effort on the engine though. Have got gotten it balanced and lightened for high rpm?

 

[rele]

Hello all
How low can I go with the head on 1108cm3,and what do you suggest about intake and exhaust inlets,should I polish them both or to polish exaust but not intake and how much should I make them bigger?

 

[alexbpl]

I'm not sure about how far you can go with head skimming. Are you doing it to raise the compression or cure a warped head?

Porting the inlet and exhaust are usually a good thing to do to get a few extra bhp/

I usually port the inlet manifold using a spinning abraisive cylinder on a flexible rod to run up and down and remove any casting marks and rough patches. You can also 'gasket match' the inlet and exhaust by holding the gaskets to the ports and seeing if there is any overlap or area which can be removed.

Some people say dont polish the inlet valves, as the fuel/carbon deposits on the valves help mix the fuel and air together by causing turbulent airflow. However I prefer to polish everything straight off.

Best way to do it is to put the valves in a lathe, then using scotchbrite and emery cloth and finally a polishing compound to get them to a mirror finish.

You have to be a bit careful about the valve stem though as you could actually polish it too much and wear it down, causing it to seal badly with the valve stem oil seal.

Not sure what else there is to do really. Just make sure everything is in tolerance and that you use a high quality oil.

 

[rele]

My panda van is consumping coolant and I plan to change head gasket and in the same time to do the head and to plan how to make staniels-steel exhaust manifold and new air intake.
I also love to polish all,but read that some people just make them bigger and leave them rough.
One more question
How to solve the 2 lambda sond's, one infront and one behind the cat conv.
Just to put them in a same place on new manifold or....