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Tuning Panda as a road/track car

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Tuning Panda as a road/track car

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Mark0

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Hi folks, I should hopefully be picking up a new (old) Panda 1000 clx very soon. I like the look of it, but not the performance, I'm hoping to build a track day/quarter mile car out of it eventually ;)

I'm intending to tune it somewhat under the hood, but it's not going to be a chav-mobile and will retain most of it's outward appearance :)

Any ideas what I can do to it before the probably inevitable engine swap?
i.e. induction kits, exhausts etc. And what about things like strut braces, gas struts etc.? Could anyone point me in the right direction?

Thanks in advance.
 
That's pretty much what I was hoping to do eventually, thanks. But in the meantime I feel I'd have to earn my stripes with the 1.0l standard engine, how far can you take it by changing parts?

I can spend a bit of money in the short term, but not a great deal. It's going to be a long term project I think. There's a guy coming to pick up my Alfa tomorrow, so should be picking up my first Panda at the weekend :)
 
Earning stripes is all very well, but the time, money and effort invloved in this is considerable for a small gain or potentially no gain depending on how good you are! I think it is a good idea to learn how engines work and tuning theory, but part of this is to choose the right solution in terms of engine size/type in the first place. Any decent mod you want to make or buy for the 999cc engine is going to be a lot or all of the way towards buying a more suitable 1.2 8v, 1.2 16v or even 1.4 16v engine.

For example, a tubular exhaust manifold for the 999cc is a great upgrade and might give you 3BHP and a noticable increase in torque. You could have bought a 1.2 16v engine for the cost and have doubled your power and torque at stroke and hardly even affected your fuel economy. Also many parts like manifolds, cam, internals, etc. you buy for your 999cc won't fit on a 16v engine that you will probably end up with if you persist with the desire to make the car quicker.

The Punto Mk1 1.2 16v is the one to go for due to it's easy to install electronics. Putting a more modern 1.2 16v or 1.4 16v engine in is even better, but requires confidence with engine electronics regardless of the route you take.

I know you probably already realised some of this and you just want cheap tune-up ideas. However, the long and short of it is there aren't any cheap tune-ups that will give you a difference that you would feel is "worth it". A free-flowing intake and cone filter will give you around 0HP. A Panda 4x4 cam is worth maybe 5HP, but will require you to be fairly adventurous to fit it for a beginner (which I am presuming you are if you are asking for advice).

Perhaps the most simple, cheap upgrade for you if you do want to go in stages is an 1108cc engine from a late Panda Selecta or a Cinquecento/Seicento Sporting. 55BHP and a good increase in torque more importantly. Take old engine out, put new one in, join all pipes back up. It might be just what you need to get baptised into working with the Panda. Once you've done it though, you might very quickly begin to think that you could have just put a 1.2 in for a very similar effort..
 
Well I've tried most things Panda so here are a few things to consider.

Chassis/Body

  • Get a Lancia Y10 anti-roll bar set-up. Google 'Lancia Y10 parts' then send some emails out to people/places you find. They are a direct fit, you just need the ARB, radius arms and new bushes and clamps. They are hard to find, but there are still some around. You can get the new bushes of ebay for around £6-£10 each.
  • I got some KYB oil & gas dampers from a site I cannot remember. They are quite good and stiffen the ride a lot and help for speedy cornering and general handling. Not very expensive either.
  • If you look hard enough, there are a few strut braces left in the world for Pandas. One of them is ontop of my cupboard, but you will find that if you upgrade the engine the brace will not fit anymore.
  • Body brace across the rear arches would be nice (will have to be DIY)
  • For weight saving you can get plastic glass, but again thats a DIY job. Also you can cut the crossmember and excess material out of the boot, also the wiper motor, door cards, seats etc and save a few KG's.
Engine



Standard 999cc FIRE engine upgrades
  • Panda 4x4 camshaft
  • Induction kit
  • Exhaust manifold from another 999cc FIRE engine (think its a cinq sporting but cant remember)
Non standard engines
  • 1.2 16v Mk1 Punto engine (relatively easy, the engine mounts and the gearbox matings are exactly the same)
  • 1108cc engine (also easy)
  • Coupe 16v turbo engine WILL NOT FIT no matter what :(
  • Punto GT engine WILL FIT though....:)
Brakes
  • I have the drilled and grooved disks but they are still pretty naff. I would love to discover a new brake upgrade to the Panda thats comes directly from another Fiat. Maybe a Punto GT setup will fit? I will have to find out later in the year.
As lewey has quite rightly said; it's all pretty much pointless unless you do an engine change. Trust me I've put air filters on, swapped manifold, done this done that and if I could go back in time I'd just stick the 1.2 16v lump in straight away and be off to 60 in 8 seconds :)

Why don't you pioneer a new engine swap? Try fitting an Audi/VW 1.8 20vt engine mildly tuned to 350bhp.

I'm still undecided in my latest turbo project. I bought a Coupe 16vt, but had to sell it 3 days later when I realised there was NO F'King way it was going to fit.......ever. Now I'm looking at Punto GT engines but thinking......'is 180bhp really enough?'.............'should I use a VW/Audi 1.8 20vt engine?'.............'maybe even a Honda VTEC engine?......'

These questions eat away at my soul!!!

The brilliant thing about Panda's at the end of that day though is that they are very light (mine weighs 720kg with a full interior and everything how it should be) so the power to weight ratios are quite impressive.

Plus they are pretty sleeper looking and nobody would ever think they could open a can of woop ass on a fast modern car, even with the 1.2 16v engine.

I'll stop talking now :)
 
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Thanks for all the useful info so far folks. It's given me plenty of food for thought.
I'm not used to low capacity tuning, I do for the meantime have a 2.0l Twinspark available ;)

But if I hold on to the Alfa I can't buy the Panda...

Is there anything I can do prior to an engine swap that I could use on the new engine? Exhaust or something? An engine swap would be summertime next year you see.

What about wheels? Would Alfa 155 16" speedlines fit without having to roll the arches?

One way or another, I'll get my spare 145 cloverleaf front seats to fit in the meantime and start from there....
 
Lewey is good with Panda wheel do's and don'ts, however I had to roll my arches with 13" wheels and 165 tyres. It's not a major job just a hammer and someone on the other side to amsorb/deaden the impact so the panel doesn't deform.

I hope you go through with your track/race Panda and it ends up pretty fast. I think so far there are 4/5 fast Panda's in the world, you could be number 6! haha

If I had the space, money and knowledge I'd go for something like a rear-engine V6 or V8 Panda, otherwise a front wheel drive drag car.
 
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I definitely will do it, that's really the only reason to buy the panda, I don't NEED it and I'm lucky enough to know I'll be able to afford to do it too (in the long run).

I've been messing about with the Alfa for long enough to know that I enjoy tinkering with engines. The only engine swap I've ever done was in a vespa though:lol:
But I'll give it a go. I have a fair few friends that are handy with the spanners that will help out.

I won't have anything engineering-wise to do until the summer though, so I suppose I'll just spend the time till then getting familiar with it and maybe do some styling. I love a bit of DIY painting and bodywork :)
 
Mark0 said:
Is there anything I can do prior to an engine swap that I could use on the new engine? Exhaust or something? An engine swap would be summertime next year you see.
Click to expand...
I couldn't think of anything, hence my warning. Alex has pointed out some good things other than engine mods to do.

Mark0 said:
What about wheels? Would Alfa 155 16" speedlines fit without having to roll the arches?
Click to expand...
15" wheels with the lowest profile tyres will require mods and are going to be hard to live with even with the mods. 16" is basically not happening. 165 tyres are the limit for normal use unless you put some custom springs in that all but prevent movement of the body!

Mark0 said:
One way or another, I'll get my spare 145 cloverleaf front seats to fit in the meantime and start from there....
Click to expand...
Will need complete custom frames making. The seat anchorage design is unconventional in the Panda.
 
Ok, sold my Alfa tonight, so we are go for launch!
Next job, go and get my Panda :) I suppose when I see it in the flesh I'll be in a better position as to what can and can't be done.

So maybe something like the old Momo vegas that they fitted on Alfa spiders might fit as a 14" with low profiles...
 
When I was getting wheels for my Panda, I just looked for some retro Fiat wheels or Lancia ones. Most have the 4x98 PCD. I'm running Fiat X1/9 alloy wheels and they are seriously light. With the standard 999cc FIRE engine I actually knew the car was faster just by changing the wheels!
 
Just got back from a w/end away and it looks like you've been given good advice by Lewey and Alex.

Not much I can add other than to agree that 16" wheels are no go unless you do some serious body mods and find a way to fit power steering. I know that the Panda on 'Pimp my ride' had 17" but that was with major body mods carried out by experts, and they never tell you what these creations are like to drive afterwards do they ;).

Looks like your best bet is to leave the engine till later and go straight for a transpant, in the meantime you can prepare the body, brakes and suspension for all that extra power, but I think you've already come to that conclusion.

Incidently, the engine swap will be made slightly easier if you're starting with an injected Panda with servo brakes, is this the case?
 
I'm currently making a plastic glass kit for my panda...........jesus christ it's hard!

Perspex/Lexan/whatever it actually is, is impossible to work with!!!! You can't jigsaw, hacksaw or even look at it without it cracking and ruining the last 4 hours.

Measurements for the back window are 50cmx110cm. The replacement plastic needs to be the same as the glass to fit the rubber seal (5mm thick).

For the side windows I'm using 6mm plastic due to the window catch, which means it needs a little more strength.

I'll let you know the weight difference between the stock boot and my diy lightweight one. I rekon its around 10kg. The glass, wiper motor and crossmember weighed a ton!
 
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alexbpl said:
Well I've tried most things Panda so here are a few things to consider.

Chassis/Body

  • Get a Lancia Y10 anti-roll bar set-up. Google 'Lancia Y10 parts' then send some emails out to people/places you find. They are a direct fit, you just need the ARB, radius arms and new bushes and clamps. They are hard to find, but there are still some around. You can get the new bushes of ebay for around £6-£10 each.
  • I got some KYB oil & gas dampers from a site I cannot remember. They are quite good and stiffen the ride a lot and help for speedy cornering and general handling. Not very expensive either.
  • If you look hard enough, there are a few strut braces left in the world for Pandas. One of them is ontop of my cupboard, but you will find that if you upgrade the engine the brace will not fit anymore.
  • Body brace across the rear arches would be nice (will have to be DIY)
  • For weight saving you can get plastic glass, but again thats a DIY job. Also you can cut the crossmember and excess material out of the boot, also the wiper motor, door cards, seats etc and save a few KG's.
Engine




Standard 999cc FIRE engine upgrades
  • Panda 4x4 camshaft
  • Induction kit
  • Exhaust manifold from another 999cc FIRE engine (think its a cinq sporting but cant remember)
Non standard engines
  • 1.2 16v Mk1 Punto engine (relatively easy, the engine mounts and the gearbox matings are exactly the same)
  • 1108cc engine (also easy)
  • Coupe 16v turbo engine WILL NOT FIT no matter what :(
  • Punto GT engine WILL FIT though....:)
Brakes
  • I have the drilled and grooved disks but they are still pretty naff. I would love to discover a new brake upgrade to the Panda thats comes directly from another Fiat. Maybe a Punto GT setup will fit? I will have to find out later in the year.
As lewey has quite rightly said; it's all pretty much pointless unless you do an engine change. Trust me I've put air filters on, swapped manifold, done this done that and if I could go back in time I'd just stick the 1.2 16v lump in straight away and be off to 60 in 8 seconds :)

Why don't you pioneer a new engine swap? Try fitting an Audi/VW 1.8 20vt engine mildly tuned to 350bhp.

I'm still undecided in my latest turbo project. I bought a Coupe 16vt, but had to sell it 3 days later when I realised there was NO F'King way it was going to fit.......ever. Now I'm looking at Punto GT engines but thinking......'is 180bhp really enough?'.............'should I use a VW/Audi 1.8 20vt engine?'.............'maybe even a Honda VTEC engine?......'

These questions eat away at my soul!!!

The brilliant thing about Panda's at the end of that day though is that they are very light (mine weighs 720kg with a full interior and everything how it should be) so the power to weight ratios are quite impressive.

Plus they are pretty sleeper looking and nobody would ever think they could open a can of woop ass on a fast modern car, even with the 1.2 16v engine.

I'll stop talking now :)
Click to expand...

still wondering why you say a coupe 16vt won't fit, it wouldn't make sense since the engine/gearbox is almost as heavy as the panda but it should fit with a bit of work.. remember that a 20vt 5cyl lump fits in a punto mk1...

best bang for buck is the gt lump without a doubt...
 
lewey said:
Haven't seen you around here for a while!

Yes it is, but not easy for a inexperienced modder like the OP. A larger FIRE engine is the simplistic, very cheap option that won't require other sympathy mods to be made like the UT/PGT conversion would.
Click to expand...

my panda didn't take the power very well and bent the chassis just behind the A pillar, kept the engine and most parts and scrapped the chassis.. haven't touched a FIRE in a few years now.. usually just lurk around the forums, most posts nowadays are not for my taste..

easiest swap in all respects would be a 1242cc 8v from a mk1 punto 60, slap a mk1 75 cam on it and a few other mods and call it a day.. runs with factory ecu or carb as desired..

i would steer away from mk2 punto engines, way to much electronics required for an easy swap, fuel pump etc... same goes for the mk1 75..

i'd say about 80bhp/1000cc is relactively easy to achieve from any FIRE, anything over 100bhp/L becomes expensive on a money per hp basis..

UT/PGT engine easily gets 150bhp for not much work.. or if courageous the HF turbo is an even better option for the same money..
 
smokeme said:
haven't touched a FIRE in a few years now.. usually just lurk around the forums, most posts nowadays are not for my taste..
Click to expand...
Yeah, fair enough. The modern FIRE turbo engines make what you were trying to do to FIRE engines years ago child's play now. And if you know simple electronics, they're cheap to implement too! I just put one in an Uno for £700.
 
The 16vt engine and gearbox is huge and not really good for a Panda.

Well, dont get me wrong, it is possible but you need a lot of time and fabrication skills. Plus you need to be able to completely destroy your Panda - so make sure its rotten and worthless first!

Anyway here's the dilemma with the 16vt.

The distance from the side engine mount to the gerbox mount is the same as the distance between the top of the Panda strut towers. So just the 16vt engine and box have to fit where usually your Panda engine and gearbox is already mounted with driveshafts. To overcome this you need 4 inches extra width (at each side) in the engine bay, which means moving your strut towers, which means re-aligning your car etc etc AKA not much fun anymore.

Another problem is that if you managed to do it another way like cut the engine into the R/H wing and sit the gearbox in the same place as the Panda gearbox, the final drive would stick out so far that you probably wouldn't be able to get 1/2 a turn on your steering before it hit the final drive.

Then I realised that I was going to get 250bhp from all this effort when a good U/T or a Punto GT engine conversion could get the same power with half the weight and half the effort.

Now if anybody has any good ideas about brake upgrades I'm listening.....:)

Smokeme, tell me about your Panda. What power did you put through it? How did it bend the chassis?
 
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