General Panda 4x4 - is ESP worthwhile ?

[pand]

Thanks in advance for any replies

I've Just ordered a Petrol 4x4 Panda for the wife and am wondering if it is worth adding the ESP (with ASR MSR) option ??
It won't be used for off roading or anything, just to get her through future Winters like the one we are just having in the UK.

Would need a quick response if we are going to get the dealer to change the order though.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

I've always thought it could be ordered on 2wd's

TBH just get decent winter tyres when the need arises. Means you'll have better all round control

 

[Bald Silver Surfer]

You're only going to get one chance to put on it what you want and need....If I was ordering new I'd have it. When you come for resale you'll get it back as a desirable spec and well worth the money. It'll do what it says on the tin!

Ross

 

[pand]

That's one vote for and one against.

It would seem that ESP and MSR they are designed to prevent wheelspin but it is the spinning of the front wheels that causes the viscous coupling to make the 4 wheel drive cut in. So if ESP is stops the front wheels spinning faster than the rear then the 4 wheel drive wont cut in ! (Confused !)

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

You're only going to get one chance to put on it what you want and need....If I was ordering new I'd have it. When you come for resale you'll get it back as a desirable spec and well worth the money. It'll do what it says on the tin!

Ross

Won't get your money back, just makes the car easier to sell

That's one vote for and one against.

It would seem that ESP and MSR they are designed to prevent wheelspin but it is the spinning of the front wheels that causes the viscous coupling to make the 4 wheel drive cut in. So if ESP is stops the front wheels spinning faster than the rear then the 4 wheel drive wont cut in ! (Confused !)

Hence why I'm sure its not available on 4wd

 

[pand]

Won't get your money back, just makes the car easier to sell



Hence why I'm sure its not available on 4wd

That last bit is interesting because it is showing as available as an option on the Petrol Panda 4x4 on the Fiat UK and Fiat Italy web sites.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

That last bit is interesting because it is showing as available as an option on the Panda 4x4 on the Fiat UK and Fiat Italy web sites.

You going for the Petrol? What 4x4 system does it use as I heard that they'd changed to being similar to the Panda Cross or something?

 

[pand]

Yes - the 1.2 Petrol. In the UK the Diesel is called the Cross and has ESP as standard but I have read on this forum that the 4wd system might differ to the Petrol version

So the 1.2 Petrol has the Viscous coupling to drive the rear wheels when the fronts start spinning faster than the backs but what if the ESP stops them spinning faster than the fronts - no 4Wheel drive !

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

So the 1.2 Petrol has the Viscous coupling to drive the rear wheels when the fronts start spinning faster than the backs but what if the ESP stops them spinning faster than the fronts - no 4Wheel drive !

Double check with dealer. I believe that this system has been phased out

 

[pand]

Double check with dealer. I believe that this system has been phased out

I have got a call in to the dealer about this, not sure what they will say if they respond.

sorry I'm being thick - which is being phased out the ESP on 4x4 being phased out or the viscous coupling method of achieving 4x4 ?

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

I have got a call in to the dealer about this, not sure what they will say if they respond.

sorry I'm being thick - which is being phased out the ESP on 4x4 being phased out or the viscous coupling method of achieving 4x4 ?

The bit in bold on the Petrols. I think they might be getting the same set-up as the DERV Cross

 

[trackdayqueen]

Personally I think it's a waste of money on such a low powered car that's very much geared towards 'safe' handling. It's not an M3 is it?

The stereo upgrade is worth having though and is quite a bit cheaper.

If you are obsessed with safety you could for the side airbags I guess.

 

[pand]

How does the diesel cross 4x4 function ?

Is anyone else of the opinion that esp/asr won't work with the viscous coupling 4x4 system?

 

[Trefor]

Well ESP must work with 4x4s, we had it on our Audi TT. Went to an Audi day once where they allowed us to test ESP (in an A6 this time), very impressive. I'm an advanced driver, and have driven many cars in many conditions, I consider myself pretty good but not a driving god. This was a 40mph 'mega swerve' test - I lost it completely with ESP off, skidding sideways to a halt (off the 'road'). With ESP back on the second time round the car braked the sliding wheel(s) and I made it through with no problem. The third time I was told to keep my foot on the gas, it was even better then. Now will I come across this situation on the road? Well I have once (see below*). I'm sure I've done more than 40mph in the Panda down a country lane where I may need to do a mega swerve due to horse/bike/pedestrian/oncoming car etc

Not everyone is a great driver, and aids like ESP, ABS are helpful. Otherwise they wouldn't exist (remember how much manufacturers pay to develop them). In some countries like Denmark (I think) ESP is compulsory, they have considered making it so here too.

I have ESP and side/window airbags. I'm not a bad driver, but since I could afford it and I don't trust anyone else on the road I paid for these extras. I hope I never need to find out if they work.

* The one time I needed ESP I was in the TVR. Driving along a nice straight road coming into the Northern outskirts of Bicester, coming up to a staggered crossroads where the right hand junction is dangerous/first. I slowed to 50ish and watched out. Nothing, so far so good. The left hand approach to this crossroads is pretty open, but a guy in a Ford Puma was approaching and couldn't stop in time (pretty bizzare as he was coming up and slowing so I discounted him popping into my lane). Then he didn't stop and carried on, stopping broadside in my way. I didn't even have time to touch the brakes, hit the horn or anything. I swerved around him on the other side of the road and got angry later. I was in my TVR T350 - even my old Chimaera would not have made that swerve, the Panda would definitely have spun out at the very least. Apart from the best of sports cars , ESP would have saved the day there.

 

[pand]

Well ESP must work with 4x4s, we had it on our Audi TT.

But the Panda has a particular set-up with a viscous coupling that drives the rear wheels ONLY when the fronts are spinning faster than the rears. If esp/asr stops the fronts from spinning too fast then the 4 wheel drive would never cut in ! That is the crux of my question - is the esp worthwhile on the 4x4 Panda with it's viscous coupling or is it counter-productive?

Are you saying that the Audi TT has the same type of 4x4 as the Panda ?

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Well ESP must work with 4x4s, we had it on our Audi TT.

Not all 4WD's are the same

Are you saying that the Audi TT has the same type of 4x4 as the Panda ?

No it doesn't

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

I believe the newer (late 2008 onwards) Panda 4x4 doesn't use a viscous coupling, and so no longer relies on front wheel spin to engage 4x4. It now uses the (apparently unreliable) electronic selection of 4x4 as used in the Panda Cross instead, which I presume uses the ABS sensors to detect if the wheels are losing grip and 4x4 is needed. This does allow the use of ESP with the 4x4 system.

However, given how little power the 1.2 4x4 has, I really wouldn't think its necessary...

My 2005 model (and all those with viscous coupling) has MSR system (that prevents wheels locking up if you change down a gear too early or too abruptly, which can cause a slide on snow)

Differential Lock -- now that I would say was handy (but still not available except on the Cross)

P

 

[pand]

I believe the newer (late 2008 onwards) Panda 4x4 doesn't use a viscous coupling, and so no longer relies on front wheel spin to engage 4x4. It now uses the (apparently unreliable) electronic selection of 4x4 as used in the Panda Cross instead, which I presume uses the ABS sensors to detect if the wheels are losing grip and 4x4 is needed. This does allow the use of ESP with the 4x4 system.
P

That makes sense - still no reply back from Dealer / Fiat as to how these technologies fit together on the Panda 4x4 but if I do get one I will post it.
Hoping it aint unreliable as her current car (non-Fiat) hasn't put a wheel wrong in 7 years.

 

[pand]

I believe the newer (late 2008 onwards) Panda 4x4 doesn't use a viscous coupling, and so no longer relies on front wheel spin to engage 4x4. It now uses the (apparently unreliable) electronic selection of 4x4 as used in the Panda Cross instead, which I presume uses the ABS sensors to detect if the wheels are losing grip and 4x4 is needed. This does allow the use of ESP with the 4x4 system.
P

I have now got a reply from the dealer - the 1.2 4x4 now uses an electronic 4x4 system (and not the old viscous differential) which does work in conjunction with esp.

 

[R1NGA]

My 2005 model (and all those with viscous coupling) has MSR system (that prevents wheels locking up if you change down a gear too early or too abruptly, which can cause a slide on snow)

Differential Lock -- now that I would say was handy (but still not available except on the Cross)

P

I strongly suspect that the mechanical/viscous approach to 4x4 will prove to be much more reliable in the long run - look how many Land Rovers still work perfectly well, compared to the number of Series 2 Discos and RR's that have had issues - or the Cross recently for that matter.

As you say though - a diff lock in the rear would be a great addition. Had a pneumatic ARB locker in my old Disco, but they don't do a version for the Panda (unsurprisingly). Suspect best bet would be a traditional plated LSD as a one-off, which I may pursue at some point. If I do, I'll let you know!

Phil G