Technical Oil leaks - to sort or not to sort?

[Gman88667733]

None of the oil I have smelt has smelt particularly bad... I'll go have another look shortly.
Is there an easy way to check the gearbox oil level?

 

[Gman88667733]

Where my car is parked at work, there is very little room is get under it. I've stuck my phone under and taken some photos which I'll attach.

Is this the correct part?

 

[Gman88667733]

May not be helpful, but I will dump a few more photos on that I took.
None of the oil is particularly fresh, it's all old. It all smells like engine oil to my noise!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

You can see bits of the metal coolant pipe in a couple of the pics. One where it's coming out from behind the cat - the O2 sensor and it's wires are in the foreground - and then again another bit of it sticking out from behind the oil filter. It's looking quite "crusty" and I think a closer look is advisable. Becky's was a bit weird in that it actually looked pretty good with good paint for most of it's surface. I decided to dismantle it because it was leaking from the rubber seal where it plugs into the back of the water pump. Initially I was just going to renew the seal but after I removed it I found some deep rust pits around where the bracket is welded on and in one other place. As these pipes are a known weakness I decided to just renew the pipe itself. Whilst I was going to the bother of removing the old one anyway. By the way getting the pipe in and out behind the exhaust is tricky and needs a little thinking about how you need to twist and turn it but it's doable, just, without removing the exhaust itself. (I did have the heat shield loose at the time because I was repairing it's fixings which had fatigue fractured which probably made the fitting of the pipe a little easier. By the way it's simply a push fit into the back of the water pump. I lubed it with some silicon grease and even then it needed a very strong push to get it in place. A good clue as to whether you've got it fully pushed home is to check whether the hole in the securing bracket lines up with the tapped hole in the block. Be just a little careful with that securing bolt when you remove it. Felicity's (1992 Panda parade) sheared off in the block which was quite a pain but the others I've done all came out just fine (being on the front of the block they tend to rust a bit.)

The last pic posted shows the inner driveshaft joint quite clearly and it looks nice and dry, no sign of oil. On this evidence my bets would be on the cam cover gasket being the culprit.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

May be helpful to know that the seal comes with the pipe when you order a new pipe (that is it did from Fiat themselves and S4p) - it can be bought separately from the dealer, not seen it separately available elsewhere so you'll pay top dollar. This seal is a big rubber ring (slightly better design on newer engines) which seals simply because it's a tight fit in the hole which causes it to compress as you push the pipe into the back of the water pump. There is no other fitting, like a screwed flange for instance, so it relies completely on the "springyness" of the rubber to make the seal. It's almost guaranteed to leak a bit when it gets old and the rubber hardens, especially if you disturb it.

Ps. If you decide to do the pipe simple destroy and throw away the old hose clips and replace with "jubilee" clips, or similar, when reassembling. Your clips look like original fitment type which are awkward, sometimes impossible, to reuse.

 

[Gman88667733]

You can see bits of the metal coolant pipe in a couple of the pics. One where it's coming out from behind the cat - the O2 sensor and it's wires are in the foreground - and then again another bit of it sticking out from behind the oil filter. It's looking quite "crusty" and I think a closer look is advisable. Becky's was a bit weird in that it actually looked pretty good with good paint for most of it's surface. I decided to dismantle it because it was leaking from the rubber seal where it plugs into the back of the water pump. Initially I was just going to renew the seal but after I removed it I found some deep rust pits around where the bracket is welded on and in one other place. As these pipes are a known weakness I decided to just renew the pipe itself. Whilst I was going to the bother of removing the old one anyway. By the way getting the pipe in and out behind the exhaust is tricky and needs a little thinking about how you need to twist and turn it but it's doable, just, without removing the exhaust itself. (I did have the heat shield loose at the time because I was repairing it's fixings which had fatigue fractured which probably made the fitting of the pipe a little easier. By the way it's simply a push fit into the back of the water pump. I lubed it with some silicon grease and even then it needed a very strong push to get it in place. A good clue as to whether you've got it fully pushed home is to check whether the hole in the securing bracket lines up with the tapped hole in the block. Be just a little careful with that securing bolt when you remove it. Felicity's (1992 Panda parade) sheared off in the block which was quite a pain but the others I've done all came out just fine (being on the front of the block they tend to rust a bit.)

The last pic posted shows the inner driveshaft joint quite clearly and it looks nice and dry, no sign of oil. On this evidence my bets would be on the cam cover gasket being the culprit.

Sorry to be a bit daft, but which photo shows the coolant pipe? Is it this one in the middle? Also, is this the part I require - https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=...vMt640VYhOwu3NSie0z-CP5PLtZy9G8RoCNjsQAvD_BwE

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Ok. starting at the Oxygen sensor - that's the crimped tubular thing with the wires coming out of it screwed into the exhaust at the bottom of the picture (if it interests you that's the "post cat" O2 sensor. The pre cat one is at the top and can be seen under the bonnet. The precat plays a big part in mixture control for the engine, Post cat pretty much monitors gasses coming out of the cat to see if the cat is performing correctly. As far as I know both sensors are the same on our FIRE engines which is handy when fault finding as you can swap them over when fault finding) - The wires go inside a sheath almost as soon as they leave the sensor. Follow the wire up and there's a plastic clip keep following the wire up and you can just see the plug they go into (4 wires). To the left of that plug is a large rubber water hose and the metal pipe it fits onto is the end of the metal pipe we are talking about. You can also see the metal support bracket welded to it just where it disappears behind the heat shield/exhaust. On mine, where this bracket joins the pipe was one of the badly corroded areas although the rest of my pipe looked better than yours.

The link you've posted certainly looks like the pipe but give S4p a ring just to be sure. They will check their database against your VIN (chassis) number if there's any doubt. They are very helpful and won't mind at all. At least 2 of them are called Mike/mick! If you'd like a little light entertainment get a quote for the dealer supplied pipe. If it's anything like the quote I was give it's best to be steadying yourself against something when they reply so you don't fall over laughing!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Weird, it posted the above twice/ Not for the first time either. This post is to erase it.

 

[Gman88667733]

Ok. starting at the Oxygen sensor - that's the crimped tubular thing with the wires coming out of it screwed into the exhaust at the bottom of the picture (if it interests you that's the "post cat" O2 sensor. The pre cat one is at the top and can be seen under the bonnet. The precat plays a big part in mixture control for the engine, Post cat pretty much monitors gasses coming out of the cat to see if the cat is performing correctly. As far as I know both sensors are the same on our FIRE engines which is handy when fault finding as you can swap them over when fault finding) - The wires go inside a sheath almost as soon as they leave the sensor. Follow the wire up and there's a plastic clip keep following the wire up and you can just see the plug they go into (4 wires). To the left of that plug is a large rubber water hose and the metal pipe it fits onto is the end of the metal pipe we are talking about. You can also see the metal support bracket welded to it just where it disappears behind the heat shield/exhaust. On mine, where this bracket joins the pipe was one of the badly corroded areas although the rest of my pipe looked better than yours.

The link you've posted certainly looks like the pipe but give S4p a ring just to be sure. They will check their database against your VIN (chassis) number if there's any doubt. They are very helpful and won't mind at all. At least 2 of them are called Mike/mick! If you'd like a little light entertainment get a quote for the dealer supplied pipe. If it's anything like the quote I was give it's best to be steadying yourself against something when they reply so you don't fall over laughing!

Thanks a lot for that. Cracking write up.
Do I need to do anything with the bracket that is welded to the existing pipe then? Or is it already attached to the new one?
If mine is looking worse than yours did, even if it isn't leaking, I'll change it just to be safe.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Nothing you can do with it really, it's just welded to the pipe so an integral part. I think the welding probably disrupts the molecular structure of the metal of the wall of the pipe which makes it more susceptible to corrosion. Do you know of a wee Fiat independent garage near to you? If so he/she might give you an opinion, free of caharge, as to the pipes condition. It would only take a couple of minutes. someone working on them all the time will know immediately if the pipe is bad enough to be the better of being renewed.
Kind regards
Jock

Ps. I wouldn't waste any time trying to derust and paint an old pipe.

 

[Gman88667733]

Nothing you can do with it really, it's just welded to the pipe so an integral part. I think the welding probably disrupts the molecular structure of the metal of the wall of the pipe which makes it more susceptible to corrosion. Do you know of a wee Fiat independent garage near to you? If so he/she might give you an opinion, free of caharge, as to the pipes condition. It would only take a couple of minutes. someone working on them all the time will know immediately if the pipe is bad enough to be the better of being renewed.
Kind regards
Jock

Ps. I wouldn't waste any time trying to derust and paint an old pipe.

What I mean is, does the new part come with that bracket welded to it already? So the whole thing gets replaced.

 

[Gman88667733]

Hopefully if I change the valve cover gasket and this coolant pipe, the minor oil seepage will be sorted as well as a bit of extra preventative maintenance with the coolant pipe.

The car was bought as a cheap runaround for maybe a year, but we love it, so I expect it'll hang around for a while.

Given the low mileage (now at 41,500) I am hoping it has a lot of life left in it.

 

[Gman88667733]

Just another quick one...
Having a look under the bonnet I have seen that a rubber boot/covering is perished. I'm not entirely sure what it is, but I'll add a photo and see if it is a big issue or not. Right in the middle of the photo.

 

[koalar]

gear selector cable

boots are omitted from latter versions so not needed

cables do fail over time causing difficult gear changing.

 

[Gman88667733]

gear selector cable

boots are omitted from latter versions so not needed

cables do fail over time causing difficult gear changing.

So I don't need to worry about that?
I don't really have any excessive gear selection issues at all. The box is smooth

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

What I mean is, does the new part come with that bracket welded to it already? So the whole thing gets replaced.

Yes it does - come with it welded in place. If you go back to the S4p link you posted you can see it towards the right hand end of the pipe, it's a little strange looking because of the angle it's been photo'd at.

Have a good look at how the coolant pipe fits. It's definitely fiddly. Good job to do if you have an expansive vocabulary of expletives! How would you rate your experience/competence level? If you are very inexperienced you might like to consider getting an "expert" to do it for you. Worth remembering there are a lot of these engines around - not just in FIATS - so many independent workshops will be reasonably familiar with them and won't find a job like this too taxing. Remember a lot of coolant will be lost when the pipe is pulled so expect to need it replaced. Actually a good opportunity to do a coolant change while you're about it anyway?

The rubber boot is on the gear change linkage. Pretty sure you can't buy them separately, they come with the cable. Eventually the cable will wear because of dirt and moisture getting in but I've seen a few looking like that and they seem to work just fine. You could try a silcone spray which will disperse moisture and lubricate without being "claggy" - which would attract dirt/dust like a spray grease would. Probably be ok just to leave it alone and remember if the gear change gets stiff and notchy then that may be what's wrong.

 

[Gman88667733]

Yes it does - come with it welded in place. If you go back to the S4p link you posted you can see it towards the right hand end of the pipe, it's a little strange looking because of the angle it's been photo'd at.

Have a good look at how the coolant pipe fits. It's definitely fiddly. Good job to do if you have an expansive vocabulary of expletives! How would you rate your experience/competence level? If you are very inexperienced you might like to consider getting an "expert" to do it for you. Worth remembering there are a lot of these engines around - not just in FIATS - so many independent workshops will be reasonably familiar with them and won't find a job like this too taxing. Remember a lot of coolant will be lost when the pipe is pulled so expect to need it replaced. Actually a good opportunity to do a coolant change while you're about it anyway?

The rubber boot is on the gear change linkage. Pretty sure you can't buy them separately, they come with the cable. Eventually the cable will wear because of dirt and moisture getting in but I've seen a few looking like that and they seem to work just fine. You could try a silcone spray which will disperse moisture and lubricate without being "claggy" - which would attract dirt/dust like a spray grease would. Probably be ok just to leave it alone and remember if the gear change gets stiff and notchy then that may be what's wrong.

My experience level is low. General servicing is fine, brakes and suspension is also fine. I'm new to anything with the cooling system. But I suppose you have to start somewhere! If it is just a push fit at either end, I'll have a look at the weekend and see if I can give it a go.
I have no record of a coolant change, so probably a good idea to drain it all before I do it and then refill and bleed afterwards.

I'll ignore the gear linkage for now. I'll keep an eye on it and if it worsens, I'll look into it.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Just went out and popped Becky's bonnet. You may know there are two cables "doing" gear changing duties? On Becky the bottom one has a rubber boot - with one split, so a little better condition than yours - and the top one has no sign of any boot at all so I'm guessing it never had one. The gear change works just fine and has done since we bought her at least a couple of years ago.

 

[Gman88667733]

Just went out and popped Becky's bonnet. You may know there are two cables "doing" gear changing duties? On Becky the bottom one has a rubber boot - with one split, so a little better condition than yours - and the top one has no sign of any boot at all so I'm guessing it never had one. The gear change works just fine and has done since we bought her at least a couple of years ago.

Wonderful, cheers for that.
I'll just keep an eye on it then!

I've got quite a list of jobs mounting up it seems!

Oil + filter again, N/S front strut assembly (arriving this week) need to do something with the front heat shield and also the back box, ideally change the coolant pipe, valve cover gasket. Busy busy! I'm sure I'll think of more to do as well.

 

[Gman88667733]

Also need to have a good look at the rear brakes. Last record of a strip down was 2017. Never worked on drum brakes before, so that'll be another experience