Technical Noisy Steering Box

[GBGraham]

This new to me Fiat 124 coupe has a noisy steering box and I have eventually got around to giving it some attention. I have taken the top off expecting it to be dry because it has that sort of noise, but dry it is not. It looks like a new pin inside and the top bearing is good.
I have dipped down to see if any metal comes up but nothing and the oil is very clean, a bit thin maybe but I have absolutely no experience of steering boxes.
Has anyone got any pointers to remedy or state whether the box is goosed. Over the next couple of days I will drain out the oil for a further inspection

 

[bugsymike]

This new to me Fiat 124 coupe has a noisy steering box and I have eventually got around to giving it some attention. I have taken the top off expecting it to be dry because it has that sort of noise, but dry it is not. It looks like a new pin inside and the top bearing is good.
I have dipped down to see if any metal comes up but nothing and the oil is very clean, a bit thin maybe but I have absolutely no experience of steering boxes.
Has anyone got any pointers to remedy or state whether the box is goosed. Over the next couple of days I will drain out the oil for a further inspection

From memory we used to use 80w gear oil in steering boxes, so not thin. Sounds like wrong oil.
With car jacked up does it feel easy to turn lock to lock as it should, with no tight spots and no free play.
If not I would first check the peg adjustment, if someone has got over keen trying to lose some free play and screwed adjuster down to much.
Apart from that if that adjuster is backed off (Maybe count the number of turns if you want to keep as before) then see if steering noisy still, if so and all noise is in the box then the worm support bearings may be shot, so steering box overhaul required..

 

[GBGraham]

From memory we used to use 80w gear oil in steering boxes, so not thin. Sounds like wrong oil.
With car jacked up does it feel easy to turn lock to lock as it should, with no tight spots and no free play.
If not I would first check the peg adjustment, if someone has got over keen trying to lose some free play and screwed adjuster down to much.
Apart from that if that adjuster is backed off (Maybe count the number of turns if you want to keep as before) then see if steering noisy still, if so and all noise is in the box then the worm support bearings may be shot, so steering box overhaul required..

Thanks for your input #bugsymike. With the car off the ground I can without it's road wheels on turn from lock to lock quite freely with no sticking points it is just noisy in like dry sounding so should I look at trying to adjust the preload screw
When you say 80w, on my shelf I have some 75-90 Liqui Moly on my shelf which in comparison is a lot thinner than say the old type hypoid gear oil.

 

[GBGraham]

Just read this on Spider-Point
O ur recommendation:
Instead of original oil (usually approx. 215ml 80W90), we recommend the use of grease (approx. 300gr), as in our experience this lubricates the gearbox longer and more evenly. This can reduce wear and increase the service life of the steering gear.

Any thoughts guys?

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks for your input #bugsymike. With the car off the ground I can without it's road wheels on turn from lock to lock quite freely with no sticking points it is just noisy in like dry sounding so should I look at trying to adjust the preload screw
When you say 80w, on my shelf I have some 75-90 Liqui Moly on my shelf which in comparison is a lot thinner than say the old type hypoid gear oil.

If steering turns freely with no tight spots or slackness then leave adjuster where it is and the lock nut tight.
I checked on the internet and as I said 80-90w gear oil is correct. Do not put grease in as it will not get around the bearing races properly. The only reason they put grease in is if they can't stop oil leaking out, so not good. It didn't leave the factory full of grease!
By the way are you 100% sure the noise is from the steering box it's self and not the idler on the other side or I have even had suspension ball joints make creaking noises etc.

 

[GBGraham]

If steering turns freely with no tight spots or slackness then leave adjuster where it is and the lock nut tight.
I checked on the internet and as I said 80-90w gear oil is correct. Do not put grease in as it will not get around the bearing races properly. The only reason they put grease in is if they can't stop oil leaking out, so not good. It didn't leave the factory full of grease!
By the way are you 100% sure the noise is from the steering box it's self and not the idler on the other side or I have even had suspension ball joints make creaking noises etc.

The steering box is definitely noisy so I have removed it and fully stripped it down. The shaft with the worm drive is the culprit as there is wear on the worm for the inner races of the bearings otherwise all the bearings look fine.
These inner races do not seem to have a decent face to then, I have no idea what they are like new but they look to be void of any case hardening.
I have tried different combinations of the shims but the noise is always there.
Any advice will be welcome, and as a last resort the where abouts of a second hand box or where to buy new at a decent price please

 

[bugsymike]

The steering box is definitely noisy so I have removed it and fully stripped it down. The shaft with the worm drive is the culprit as there is wear on the worm for the inner races of the bearings otherwise all the bearings look fine.
These inner races do not seem to have a decent face to then, I have no idea what they are like new but they look to be void of any case hardening.
I have tried different combinations of the shims but the noise is always there.
Any advice will be welcome, and as a last resort the where abouts of a second hand box or where to buy new at a decent price please

If the hardening has gone on the worm gear as described in the picture below where the "ball and guide" run then I can't see a way of fixing it without replacement.
Many years ago I had a customers steering box for a Mk2 Ford Cortina 1600E "reconditioned" by so called Ford Specialists, after an expensive bill it came back with as much free play as it went to them. I complained and it came back again so stiff you could barely turn the steering wheel and yet it still had play/wear in the steering box, they had simply adjusted down the peg deeper into the worm gear, so dangerous. I took it apart myself found the original problem was wear on the sector shaft that the steering drop arm attaches to, I got an engineering firm to spray metal to rebuild the shaft and then had it machined back to original spec, I was then able to reassemble and adjust the box so it had no slack/freeplay and was light in action.
Even earlier than that I bought an immaculate Humber Super Snipe with one fault, play in the recirculating ball arrangement, described here as ball nut/ball and guide, sadly at that time parts were not available so I had to scrap it.
If in your case the wear is on the thrust bearing race area either end of the worm shaft it may be possible to have the shaft machined to fit a caged bearing inner and outer race complete so it doesn't actually run bearings directly on the shaft.
Maybe an engineering shop can advise you.

 

[GBGraham]

If the hardening has gone on the worm gear as described in the picture below where the "ball and guide" run then I can't see a way of fixing it without replacement.
Many years ago I had a customers steering box for a Mk2 Ford Cortina 1600E "reconditioned" by so called Ford Specialists, after an expensive bill it came back with as much free play as it went to them. I complained and it came back again so stiff you could barely turn the steering wheel and yet it still had play/wear in the steering box, they had simply adjusted down the peg deeper into the worm gear, so dangerous. I took it apart myself found the original problem was wear on the sector shaft that the steering drop arm attaches to, I got an engineering firm to spray metal to rebuild the shaft and then had it machined back to original spec, I was then able to reassemble and adjust the box so it had no slack/freeplay and was light in action.
Even earlier than that I bought an immaculate Humber Super Snipe with one fault, play in the recirculating ball arrangement, described here as ball nut/ball and guide, sadly at that time parts were not available so I had to scrap it.
If in your case the wear is on the thrust bearing race area either end of the worm shaft it may be possible to have the shaft machined to fit a caged bearing inner and outer race complete so it doesn't actually run bearings directly on the shaft.
Maybe an engineering shop can advise you.

Thanks for the idea, I will seek out a good machinist and see if it can be a possibility to modify

 

[124BC1]

There's a lot of 'cross-over' between these older Fiats and some Ladas - the steering box looks very similar but I've no idea if it is internally exactly the same (I have heard that a RH drive Lada steering box can be used to convert a 124 Spider (all were LHD) to RHD).

I went checking and found 2 suppliers of Lada steering box parts but the worm gear, while listed, is currently out of stock they also show replacement caged ball-races and their outermost races plus adjustment shims. Ladashop.com is in Ukraine and Ladapower.com is in the Netherlands.

I'm just throwing this out as a possible source of parts for your steering box, given that you're in Greece, I don't know if it is possible/convenient for you to use either of these suppliers, or to obtain parts from Turkey where I believe the 124 Saloon was built and was very popular, so lots of parts available?

e.g. Steering box parts for the Lada 2107 on the Lada Power w/site (note:-worm shaft is currently out of stock):-

Here's a worm shaft shown on the Lada Shop w/site (be careful to check that the length of the shaft that connects to the steering column is correct!):-
(again, note the worm shaft is currently out of stock!)

It might be possible to re-grind suitable seatings for the worm shaft bearings, but I'm not sure how the seatings might then be hardened?

It's usually cheaper to just buy a replacement part than to have specialized machining and subsequent heat treatment carried out.
Also. I suspect that if a new worm gear was being fitted, then a new worm roller should ideally also be fitted?

 

[GBGraham]

There's a lot of 'cross-over' between these older Fiats and some Ladas - the steering box looks very similar but I've no idea if it is internally exactly the same (I have heard that a RH drive Lada steering box can be used to convert a 124 Spider (all were LHD) to RHD).

I went checking and found 2 suppliers of Lada steering box parts but the worm gear, while listed, is currently out of stock they also show replacement caged ball-races and their outermost races plus adjustment shims. Ladashop.com is in Ukraine and Ladapower.com is in the Netherlands.

I'm just throwing this out as a possible source of parts for your steering box, given that you're in Greece, I don't know if it is possible/convenient for you to use either of these suppliers, or to obtain parts from Turkey where I believe the 124 Saloon was built and was very popular, so lots of parts available?

e.g. Steering box parts for the Lada 2107 on the Lada Power w/site (note:-worm shaft is currently out of stock):-

View attachment 484619
Here's a worm shaft shown on the Lada Shop w/site (be careful to check that the length of the shaft that connects to the steering column is correct!):-
(again, note the worm shaft is currently out of stock!)

View attachment 484620





It might be possible to re-grind suitable seatings for the worm shaft bearings, but I'm not sure how the seatings might then be hardened?

It's usually cheaper to just buy a replacement part than to have specialized machining and subsequent heat treatment carried out.
Also. I suspect that if a new worm gear was being fitted, then a new worm roller should ideally also be fitted?

 

[GBGraham]

Thank you once again for the comprehensive reply and information pages. I have contacted a couple of suppliers but they are reluctant in replying unfortunately so I am no wiser at the moment.
I have put feelers out all over to see if anyone has got a good s/h unit or worm. I would risk the €44+ and take a Lada worm on the off chance that it might fit but stock is like hens teeth.
You will see that there is no way we can do anything with mine. It is quite strange that the pitman shaft is in great condition so I feel it is a quasi bitsa box.

 

[bugsymike]

Thank you once again for the comprehensive reply and information pages. I have contacted a couple of suppliers but they are reluctant in replying unfortunately so I am no wiser at the moment.
I have put feelers out all over to see if anyone has got a good s/h unit or worm. I would risk the €44+ and take a Lada worm on the off chance that it might fit but stock is like hens teeth.
You will see that there is no way we can do anything with mine. It is quite strange that the pitman shaft is in great condition so I feel it is a quasi bitsa box.

Is it my eyesight or is the bearing race pressed onto the worm shaft, there seems to be a groove above the race area?
If so it may be possible to remove it and replace the bearings, inner's and outer etc.
Although the actual worm gear is quite worn also.

 

[GBGraham]

Thanks but your eyesight could be much better than mine but it looks as though the whole assembly will come off the main shaft ( which is quite pitted all over) but whether races will separate from the worm I can't tell, but I will give it a try.

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks but your eyesight could be much better than mine but it looks as though the whole assembly will come off the main shaft ( which is quite pitted all over) but whether races will separate from the worm I can't tell, but I will give it a try.

Eyesight is 73 years old , but I use a full size PC screen and zoom in.
Both races appear to have that groove, what does it look like end on from bottom of shaft?

 

[GBGraham]

Eyesight is 73 years old , but I use a full size PC screen and zoom in.
Both races appear to have that groove, what does it look like end on from bottom of shaft?

Mine is just short of 75 but I will give it more of a . All I can think at the moment is that if the were separate items they would have been case hardened like a usual bearing other than been the same material as the worm

 

[bugsymike]

Mine is just short of 75 but I will give it more of a . All I can think at the moment is that if the were separate items they would have been case hardened like a usual bearing other than been the same material as the worm

We may see more from looking at the shaft end on for clues that it is a race pressed on.
Trouble is the worm is quite poor also.
It is almost as though it was left in water for years, didn't you say the oil was very thin, not 80/90-W gear type oil which I would have expected.

 

[GBGraham]

We may see more from looking at the shaft end on for clues that it is a race pressed on.
Trouble is the worm is quite poor also.
It is almost as though it was left in water for years, didn't you say the oil was very thin, not 80/90-W gear type oil which I would have expected.

I agree totally with what you are seeing and this is why I don't think this shaft belongs with the rest, The oil was good and it was hypoid and no leaks but I have no way of proving viscosity

 

[bugsymike]

Have you got anything like this, I use these and heat as well as an hydraulic press if required to do the job.
Without those as long as you are sure it is a separate race then weakening it with angle grinder and then splitting with a good chisel often works.
We used to do that with half shaft bearings and the shrink collars that held them in the past.

 

[GBGraham]

Have you got anything like this, I use these and heat as well as an hydraulic press if required to do the job.
Without those as long as you are sure it is a separate race then weakening it with angle grinder and then splitting with a good chisel often works.
We used to do that with half shaft bearings and the shrink collars that held them in the past.

Yes I do when I can find the damn thing. I also have the S.P. hydraulic puller but that's safe in it's box

 

[bugsymike]

Yes I do when I can find the damn thing. I also have the S.P. hydraulic puller but that's safe in it's box

My garage is just a nightmare to find anything these days, there is all sorts there, but often I find things whilst looking for something else.
Another Forum Member has problems with a 90s heater plug relay on a Ducato, I said I though I had similar for a Peugeot 504, but when I found it it actually says Fiat on it and has been there since around early 90s, no idea if it still works as was second hand then.
I usually only keep things that work. I once went to a village garage auction and bought a lot containing many Lockheed and Girling brake parts, on checking them every single one was the old units stuffed back in the new boxes.