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Tuning Newbie with an idea

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Tuning Newbie with an idea

So the ECU and BCM are sepperate, and given that the 4wd system on the 4x4 is puerly mechanical and has no sensors or electronics, surely the BCMs are the same for the 100hp and the 4x4? So the 1.4 engine can go in the 4x4, using the 1.4 ecu and just plug it into the 4x4 BCM? I'm not fussed about having the city button or the sport button, but given the choice I'de probably choose the sports button because having less throttle respons could be useful offroad on bumpy tracks, but agin, not bothered.
 
AmbitiousButRubbish said:
So the ECU and BCM are sepperate, and given that the 4wd system on the 4x4 is puerly mechanical and has no sensors or electronics, surely the BCMs are the same for the 100hp and the 4x4? So the 1.4 engine can go in the 4x4, using the 1.4 ecu and just plug it into the 4x4 BCM? I'm not fussed about having the city button or the sport button, but given the choice I'de probably choose the sports button because having less throttle respons could be useful offroad on bumpy tracks, but agin, not bothered.
Click to expand...
sort answer it will not start

just the First problem of many

The CODE (or immobilizer) system prevents the starting of the engine, preventing the operation of the engine control unit, by recognising the mechanical key at the time of starting.At each start-up, when the ignition is turned on, the body computer node (which integrates the Fiat CODE system), sends to the engine control unit a recognition code to de-activate the block on functions. The recognition code, crypted and varying from among over four thousand million possible combinations, is only sent if in turn the system's control unit has recognised, via an aerial which is wrapped around the ignition switch, the code transmitted by the key.When the electrical devices are switched on, the CODE system identifies the key via the transponder contained in the key: if the transponder's secret code corresponds to one of those accepted by the car (up to 8 available keys), the CODE system enables engine starting.If there is a fault on the CODE system and the recognition of the transponder key has had a negative result, the CODE warning light (or message on the display) remains on.

There's a lot of this two way communication between the ECU, dash module and the BSI
 
Now that is a very thorough response and you seem increadibly knowledgable. How hard is it to take the immobilizer off (and anything else that prevents it from starting)
Lets be honest, nobody is going to steal a 15-20 year old fiat panda, and I'll install a kill switch somewhere. If someone really really wanted to steal it, they could drag it or lift it onto a trailer/flatbed. Also is it true that you can unlock them by pulling the door handle 100 times?
The problem with just buying either a 100hp or a 4x4 is that there are better alternatives (e.g. suzuki swift sport) and it would be really cool to have a somewhat quick little box on wheels that works almost as well in the rain as it does the dry.
Or could I just swap the ignition barrel from the 100hp too?
 
Can you switch the immo off, possibly

is anyone willing to share the information probably not on an open forum, I doubt it.

ignition barrel has nothing to do with anything electronic. Its purely a mechanical device

let try a couple of examples

someone has recently been trying to just change a key status within the BSI. But nobody has or is willing to share the information. and it is still not resolved yet

and

someone else bought a 1.2 replacement engine for their broken 1.2 but it was from a slightly latter year, the Crank sensors are slightly different and they never managed to get it to fire up


Splicing in a 1.4 ECU into a 1.2 loom is not a trival task. Its not a mater of unplugging one and plugging a different one in
 
So is there any "easy" or cost effective way of making the panda 4x4 more powerful? I recall that someone supercharged one? I presume its difficult to use an aftermarket ECU?
How fundamentally different are the 1.2 and 1.4 engines? (For example with the swift/jimny 1.3, the 1.5 engine can be swapped in and run on the 1.3 ecu, radiator, throttle body, ect)
 
AmbitiousButRubbish said:
So is there any "easy" or cost effective way of making the panda 4x4 more powerful? I recall that someone supercharged one? I presume its difficult to use an aftermarket ECU?
How fundamentally different are the 1.2 and 1.4 engines? (For example with the swift/jimny 1.3, the 1.5 engine can be swapped in and run on the 1.3 ecu, radiator, throttle body, ect)
Click to expand...
fairly different
its not just a bore or stroke change
16v vs 8v
2 cam sensors vs 1
4 coil packs vs 2
and so on

Third party ECU £713 + vat known to work formula 750 get over 100BHP out of a punto 1.1 SPI engine and different cam and springs few hours on the rolling road. All in its going to be around £1.5K and still half the dash will not work

Turbo/Super charger not sure. These are a MAP only engine. a MAF engine can normally run a small amount of boost on a standard ECU. You would need to talk to a turbo conversion company
 
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Okay, very interesting. What about an EV conversion? It would need to be done on the cheap, and ideally somewhat waterproof.
 
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I would love a Panda EV but there is the small issue of money. A new Tesla 70 kilowatt hour battery will set you back $20,000 plus fitting, yet VW are already saying they can't compete with Tesla on costs.

The issue with small EV is inadequate space for a big enough battery and of course getting all the techie bits to make it work.
EVs with a half decent range are bigger because they have space for an adequate battery. The energy costs of running the bigger car are not that great compared to a small boxy car like the Panda. Squeezing in enough battery is a big problem so nobody bothers especially as there is no profit in small EVs.

You would start by ripping out everything related to the engine. You then have to find the necessary motors, reduction gears, control equipment and batteries. Not impossible especially as a 27KW (40bhp) motor exists that's used in a motorbike. Two (or even four) of those would power a Panda and no need for a differential(s). The hard part is controls and batteries.

But Hey, Elon Musk started back in 2005 not much catching up to do.
 
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DaveMcT said:
I would love an EV Panda. The issue is enough space for a big enough battery and of course getting all the techie bits to make it work.
EVs with a half decent range are bigger because they need a bigger battery. The energy costs of running the bigger car are not that great compared to a small boxy car like the Panda. Squeezing in enough battery is a big problem so nobody bothers especially as there is no profit in small EVs.
You would start by ripping out everything related to the engine. You then have to find the necessary motors, reduction gears, control equipment and batteries. Not impossible especially as a 27KW (40bhp) motor exists that's used in a motorbike. Two (or even four) of those would power a Panda and no need for a differential(s). The hard part is controls and batteries.
Click to expand...
I'd start by costing a battery. a Zoe is 8K euros ?
on the cheap can't be done.
 
There's a bit of a discussion around EV conversions in UKLegacy at the moment (which I know @AmbitiousButRubbish is subscribed to); I think the only way to do a genuinely pleasant EV conversion is to create a bespoke system (which will cost some serious cash).

There are comparatively cost-effective 'ev in a box' systems out there which just replace the engine with an electric motor / batteries and bolt up to the existing transmission, but I suspect they'd be quite unpleasant in most cars since they'd lose all the advantages of a proper EV (range, acceleration, no fiddling with gears) whilst mucking up the car's handling / driving experience (roll centre, weight distribution and weight over the front axles would be different), plus losing the characteristic noise / power band which makes many well-liked cars feel special.
 
So for the most part, I agree with everything said so far, because its all absolutly correct and true, but what about cheaper, non-lithium batteries? What about using the 12v lead acid batteries, like a handful of people did decades ago when they did EV conversions (not high performance)
The range doent have to be massive, 75 miles would be excellent. In terms of driving excitement etc, Im hoping that the betteries would weigh less than 2 large adult passangers, and so shouldnt be detrimantal. Gear ratios, as my legacy loving friend suggested, arent an issue because the panda 4x4 gives you 5 different ones to choose between. Now, this is the tricky bit, performance. Theres absolutly no point doing this if its going to be slow. Well, slower than a panda 4x4 at least. It needs to be somewhat cost effective (i.e. if its going to cost 5k, I may as well pay someone else to make the 1.4 engine fit and figure out the electronics)
There are a few strong benefits of using a panda 4x4 as a base. Firstly, its light, secondly, its very spacious for a small car. Thirdly, almost everything works off the 12v battery as standard, except the heater and aircon, so the PAS will work, etc. Also, the 4x4 has a raised ride height, so the weight of the battery wont ruin the ride. I'll do some maths and work out how many batteries I'll need, but I've got no idea where to look for a motor?
Thanks!
 
AmbitiousButRubbish said:
So for the most part, I agree with everything said so far, because its all absolutly correct and true, but what about cheaper, non-lithium batteries? What about using the 12v lead acid batteries, like a handful of people did decades ago when they did EV conversions (not high performance)
The range doent have to be massive, 75 miles would be excellent. In terms of driving excitement etc, Im hoping that the betteries would weigh less than 2 large adult passangers, and so shouldnt be detrimantal. Gear ratios, as my legacy loving friend suggested, arent an issue because the panda 4x4 gives you 5 different ones to choose between. Now, this is the tricky bit, performance. Theres absolutly no point doing this if its going to be slow. Well, slower than a panda 4x4 at least. It needs to be somewhat cost effective (i.e. if its going to cost 5k, I may as well pay someone else to make the 1.4 engine fit and figure out the electronics)
There are a few strong benefits of using a panda 4x4 as a base. Firstly, its light, secondly, its very spacious for a small car. Thirdly, almost everything works off the 12v battery as standard, except the heater and aircon, so the PAS will work, etc. Also, the 4x4 has a raised ride height, so the weight of the battery wont ruin the ride. I'll do some maths and work out how many batteries I'll need, but I've got no idea where to look for a motor?
Thanks!
Click to expand...

Er, what you'd basically be doing with lead acid batteries is creating one of these:

1280px-Dairy_Crest_Ex_Unigate_Wales_And_Edwards_Rangemaster_Milk_Float.jpg


Unless you're planning a milk round I wouldn't recommend it, they weren't exactly renowned for their massive range (40 miles with 3500kg of batteries) or breathtaking acceleration (max speed 10mph) 🤣
 
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Yeah, lead acid will be too heavy and likely more expensive than lithium.

Leaf motor driving the 4x4 gearbox would work, and once you work out the 'best' gear (if there is one) you could lock it in place and remove the gear knob. A prius inverter is easy to drive (Openinverter), there may be smaller options available. You won't need to worry about power (even the prius inverters can handle 600+bhp). For batteries, a salvage BMW PHEV pack is about 12kWh and ~£1.5k and reasonably modular, so could probably be made to fit. Or an old leaf pack will give more capacity (range).

The expensive time consuming bit is all the ancillaries - precharge, contactors, charging...
 
Milkfloat- yes, I was hoping for a slightly lighter machine with a smaller payload.
Gears- no need to remove the gear lever, leave it in place to have 1st for occasional offroad use
Mix'n'match electronic bits. This is where I see it getting expensive and potentially going wrong. Teslas have a 12v car battery for the lights and the wipers and the dashboard etc, so from my understanding the big battery just drives the motors. The panda should work in the same way (without heating or aircon). So could I just buy a prius as a sacrificial donor car to nick all the needed components? Not sure how good the range would be, but performance should be adequate? Also, recharging. Using a bunch of 12v batteries is very easy because a simple normal car battery charger will plug into the wall and recharge it (over a long period of time I admit). For an EV battery, or to use a fast charger, I havnt a clue.
 
The large (traction) battery runs the inverter/motor, but does also keep the 12V charged (there's a DC-DC converter intended for this built in to prius inverters, other manufactures use separate modules).

You will absolutely need some heating, if only for 'an effective means to demist the windscreen' (A dishwasher element converted to DC can heat coolant and use the existing coolant loop for cabin heating, or you can get OEM modules to do the same, or you can just mount some PTC heaters in the demist air flow).

A prius battery will be a little small I think, but yes, a donor car can make things a little easier, but don't expect to be able to just pull individual bits out and just have them work (most OEM parts expect the rest of the car to be there!) To be honest, choosing particular parts works fine.

Charging - again, OEM on board chargers work nicely with a little persuasion. And there are ways of making an inverter charge the traction battery too (especially on the prius, which is actually two power inverters integrated into one unit. There are others that are similar too) That'd be slow charge, but if you keep it plugged in while parked (like plugging your phone in overnight) it'll rarely be an issue.

Have a look at openinverter.org for inspiration. Plenty of projects on there.

Rough costs...
Motor ~£250 (depending entirely on what you get, what mounts and couplers (use a clutch or two) you need to fabricate, etc etc)
Inverter ~£50 prius gen2, ~£100 gen3 (overkill, but probably the cheapest option, and includes a DC-DC to keep your 12V charged, and can be used as a battery charger)
Control board to control the inverter easily ~£350 (a more recent inverter may be possible to drive with simpler/cheaper hardware)
Battery ~£1k+ depending on the capacity you want
Contactors etc ~£250 (a complete battery may include this)
Accel pedal (although I believe the panda one will already be drive-by-wire) ~£50
HV cabling ~£250

The difficult bit may be convincing the rest of the Panda that the ECU is still fitted and happy... The mechanicals of such a project aren't particularly difficult (similar to a straight engine swap, although finding somewhere to safely fit the battery might be more tricky), but playing with HV DC electricity can easily bite, and there will be a fair bit of software needing to be written to interface everything together.
 
mjc506 said:
The large (traction) battery runs the inverter/motor, but does also keep the 12V charged (there's a DC-DC converter intended for this built in to prius inverters, other manufactures use separate modules).

You will absolutely need some heating, if only for 'an effective means to demist the windscreen' (A dishwasher element converted to DC can heat coolant and use the existing coolant loop for cabin heating, or you can get OEM modules to do the same, or you can just mount some PTC heaters in the demist air flow).

A prius battery will be a little small I think, but yes, a donor car can make things a little easier, but don't expect to be able to just pull individual bits out and just have them work (most OEM parts expect the rest of the car to be there!) To be honest, choosing particular parts works fine.

Charging - again, OEM on board chargers work nicely with a little persuasion. And there are ways of making an inverter charge the traction battery too (especially on the prius, which is actually two power inverters integrated into one unit. There are others that are similar too) That'd be slow charge, but if you keep it plugged in while parked (like plugging your phone in overnight) it'll rarely be an issue.

Have a look at openinverter.org for inspiration. Plenty of projects on there.

Rough costs...
Motor ~£250 (depending entirely on what you get, what mounts and couplers (use a clutch or two) you need to fabricate, etc etc)
Inverter ~£50 prius gen2, ~£100 gen3 (overkill, but probably the cheapest option, and includes a DC-DC to keep your 12V charged, and can be used as a battery charger)
Control board to control the inverter easily ~£350 (a more recent inverter may be possible to drive with simpler/cheaper hardware)
Battery ~£1k+ depending on the capacity you want
Contactors etc ~£250 (a complete battery may include this)
Accel pedal (although I believe the panda one will already be drive-by-wire) ~£50
HV cabling ~£250

The difficult bit may be convincing the rest of the Panda that the ECU is still fitted and happy... The mechanicals of such a project aren't particularly difficult (similar to a straight engine swap, although finding somewhere to safely fit the battery might be more tricky), but playing with HV DC electricity can easily bite, and there will be a fair bit of software needing to be written to interface everything together.
Click to expand...

Probably much easier to start with a classic car (or at least something pre-1990) for a project like this since it'd make getting everything working much easier, though if it's a classic it might well affect it's value quite badly. I reckon something like an old Merc W124 diesel estate would be a good basis for something like this - slow and the handling's not great so becoming an EV would improve it, and there's plenty of storage space for batteries under the load space / rear seats without affecting passenger room. Or (if you have the cash to get one) an original Citroen DS - I reckon one of those wafting along silently like a 1950s sci fi spaceship would suit it rather well :)
 
Absolutely. EVs can be quite simple, but having to talk to other onboard systems like traction control, abs, dashboards, body computers... that gets complicated!
 
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