Punto (Mk2/2b) Newbie with a Punto problem

[swindonpunto]

Hi everyone, I'm a newbie to the forum. It feels as though Ive gone full circle. My second car was a Fiat Uno, and my daughters second car is a Punto! Its all fine so far except for a couple of niggles.

One of them involves the Speedometer. The rev counter and all the other instruments work, except the speedo.

Its a Dynamic 1.2 2005 Model. It looks as thought it has ABS> There are no ABS warning lights on. The only warning lights are the parking brake which comes on intermittently and a bulb failure light. Strangely I cant see any bulbs out at all.....

I've been searching around forums and google. I'm confused where the speed is taken from. I'm not sure whether its taken from the VSS on the Gearbox, or from the ABS sensors on the HUB? I've plugged my OBD Reader in and its given me a P0500 Error Code for Speed Sensor.

Logic ( I know ha ha) tells me it cant be a failed hub senor because the ABS light would be on, so I'm assuming that its the VSS on the Gearbox?

Am I on the right track?

Also, and here's my daft question, where on earth is the Sensor located on the gearbox, I cant see it!!! I've looked and cant see a multi plug anywhere

Thanks

 

[Ziggy122]

ABS punto's DONT have a VSS, it is yes done by the ABS module

If there was a VSS - its literally Smack bang between the Differential Drive cups but ontop (visible from above)

Look in the Punto Guides section - there is an image there that helps!

Bulb failure - Not using LED's?
Sure you've got 10W rear sidelights - Not 5w?
Alot of peopl fit 5w's, and ping - the light comes on
Failing that, its picking up disco lights (poor earth return meaning other lights activate instead)



Intermitant Handbrake lights = Low brake fluid
or the brake fluids STUCK in the filter and doesn't drain back down (air locked)
pop cap off - Pull filter out and let it drain back in
Refit filter
Ensure Level is still good

When brake fluid is low it means 1 of 2 things
Worn components (disc/pads/Shoes etc)
or its loosing it - a Leak (pipe / flexi / wheel cylinder / caliper)

Ziggy

 

[maggers]

Hi & welcome ETC ETC. I would expect ABS on a 2b, the unit will be behind the battery. It may well be that the light has been blanked off due to a fault so first confirm it has ABS then get it code read.

 

[Ziggy122]

Hi & welcome ETC ETC. I would expect ABS on a 2b, the unit will be behind the battery. It may well be that the light has been blanked off due to a fault so first confirm it has ABS then get it code read.

Nope
My mk2b '53' 2004 doesnt have abs
Thank god it dont tbh....
Abs is crap most of the time


Ziggy

 

[maggers]

Nope
My mk2b '53' 2004 doesnt have abs
Thank god it dont tbh....
Abs is crap most of the time.
And why?

 

[Ziggy122]

Nope
My mk2b '53' 2004 doesnt have abs
Thank god it dont tbh....
Abs is crap most of the time.
And why?

I find abs activates for mr right near the point im stoped... so why bother when ive practically stopped?

Learnt to drive without abs, when ever I brake hard (emergency style)
I automatically start bouncing on thay pedal

Its less things to go wrong as well tbh....
Kiss method really...


Ziggy

 

[swindonpunto]

Thanks Gents......I'm not sure if I have ABS or not! There's no ABS light on the dash when I start the car.

.............However there is a Silver cylindrical Bosch Unit behind the battery

 

[portland_bill]

All cars from mid 2004 were required to have ABS, so it probably does have. If no light comes on, it may have been removed by previous owner. Needs codes reading with MES. (MultiECUScan)

 

[maggers]

If you were arguing about useless stuff like auto wipers and lights I'd tend to agree with you but since ABS has got me out of the crap more than once on icey roads I don't. Each to his own I guess.

 

[digger58]

"I find abs activates for mr right near the point im stoped... so why bother when ive practically stopped?
Learnt to drive without abs, when ever I brake hard (emergency style)
I automatically start bouncing on thay pedal
Its less things to go wrong as well tbh....
Kiss method really..."

Having trained as a forensic collision investigator I can assure you that ABS is FAR superior to any human intervention, I too learned long before it was available and used cadence braking but no matter how good you are you will not press and release brake pressure anywhere near the speed that ABS does it!
OK It can be a it of a nuisance sometimes,(bumpy road near stop line etc) but its advantages far out weigh the disadvantages.

An awful lot of the theory that I went through during training used lovely tyre marks to get an indication of speed, a feature that in most cases is now absent from a road traffic collision scenes due to ABS.
I'd still prefer to have it rather than rely on my foot speed!

 

[flisko]

All cars from mid 2004 were required to have ABS, so it probably does have. If no light comes on, it may have been removed by previous owner. Needs codes reading with MES. (MultiECUScan)

not all cars from 2004 onwards got abs

 

[g8rpi]

not all cars from 2004 onwards got abs

All mass produced cars sold in the UK (and EU) and registered after July 2004 have to have ABS. The only exception is maufacturers who produce less than 500 cars per year.

Robert G8RPI.

 

[swindonpunto]

Ziggy thank you to you and Portland Bill. Really appreciate your help on this. Portland Bill visited me today and kindly connected his MES to the vehicle. Whilst it hasn't solved the issue entirely it has shed some interesting light on some matters, which I will try and set out below....

1. We have been able to conclude that there is a bulb in the ABS symbol on the dash display. Using Portland Bills MES he was able to make the ABS light on the Dashboard illuminate. However the conundrum is that it does not light when the vehicle goes through its start up procedure

2. We have found a fault code of c1108. A google search of this code suggests that its is the front left sensor that is at fault. The list of possible causes for this are numerous. Strangely even though this shows as an error message, the BAS light does not light up when the vehicle is started or even appear at any time

3. Portland Bill used his MES to force the Speedometer to work whilst the vehicle was stationary. I guess we can conclude that the Speedo does work, however for some reason it is unable to get a signal from wherever it should in order to work whilst the vehicle is moving!!

4. We looked at the ABS Module and checked the connections etc and they were all sound and good

So, it would appear in conclusion that I need to remove the wheel and the liner and check the condition of the front left sensor. If that one is ok, then I guess I need to check the remaining ones, and then if they are all good, its the ABS Module

Thanks Ziggy and Portland Bill

 

[portland_bill]

To add to the above.

The ABS light does work when tested, but does not illuminate when ign turned on. This suggests to me that there is an ECU fault, although the code says LH Front sensor.

When driven, MES registers a speed from all four wheel sensors and all are close when in a straight line. C1108 code suggests that sensor may be faulty, or too far from reluctor ring. But if MES records a speed, surely the ECU can see it too?
Next diagnosis would seem to be check all wheel sensors and their cables and connections.

ePER shows a speed sensor on the gearbox available for this VIN. Could this have one, and this is a separate issue? I'd doubt it. Need to look at diff in daylight to see if sensor actually fitted, and connected to anything.

I'm thinking, ultimately, ABS module dead. Other ideas welcomed.

 

[g8rpi]

To add to the above.

The ABS light does work when tested, but does not illuminate when ign turned on. This suggests to me that there is an ECU fault, although the code says LH Front sensor.

When driven, MES registers a speed from all four wheel sensors and all are close when in a straight line. C1108 code suggests that sensor may be faulty, or too far from reluctor ring. But if MES records a speed, surely the ECU can see it too?
Next diagnosis would seem to be check all wheel sensors and their cables and connections.

ePER shows a speed sensor on the gearbox available for this VIN. Could this have one, and this is a separate issue? I'd doubt it. Need to look at diff in daylight to see if sensor actually fitted, and connected to anything.

I'm thinking, ultimately, ABS module dead. Other ideas welcomed.

Hi Bill,
Interesting results. Did you try the ABS? I wonder if it is working regardless of indications. The ABS sensors are very sensitive to bad connections, it's always worth giving the connectors at the hub a clean.
One other possibility is that the CAN connection between the ABS and instrument cluster may have failed or been disconnected. MES may be telling the instrument cluster to turn the light on rather than telling the ABS ECU to turn it on.
As this is a car at the start of ABS being mandatory it is very possible that the speedo still uses a gearbox sensor. This could be the case if the original basic model design was to have ABS as an option.


Robert G8PI

 

[Scudmonkey]

All cars from mid 2004 were required to have ABS, so it probably does have. If no light comes on, it may have been removed by previous owner. Needs codes reading with MES. (MultiECUScan)

My 2004 Active Sport doesn't have ABS

 

[twistedTSD]

All mass produced cars sold in the UK (and EU) and registered after July 2004 have to have ABS. The only exception is maufacturers who produce less than 500 cars per year.

Robert G8RPI.

This is not completely true, at least not for EU as a whole. It was still possible to buy cars without ABS in 2006 in my country (EU member), for example Chevrolet Aveo or Renault Thalia. As far as I know, members of ACEA (EU manufacturers) agreed on mandatory ABS for all new models homologated since 2004 and for all cars registered since 2006.

 

[portland_bill]

Hi Bill,
Interesting results. Did you try the ABS? I wonder if it is working regardless of indications. The ABS sensors are very sensitive to bad connections, it's always worth giving the connectors at the hub a clean.
One other possibility is that the CAN connection between the ABS and instrument cluster may have failed or been disconnected. MES may be telling the instrument cluster to turn the light on rather than telling the ABS ECU to turn it on.
As this is a car at the start of ABS being mandatory it is very possible that the speedo still uses a gearbox sensor. This could be the case if the original basic model design was to have ABS as an option.


Robert G8PI

Is this a physical disconnection, so a poor connector, or perhaps an electronic one? Would a proxy alignment fix it?

We did try to force the ABS to operate, with a few hard stops. Not sure if it did or not, as we did get a few chirrups, but could have been just short skids before the stop. Limited to space and speed at the location.

Once the connectors at the wheel sensors are checked, I'm thinkng I need to get MES to force the actuation of the ABS valves and pump, to see if they work, or if there is no communication. As with a lot of issues, more thoughts occur once away from the vehicle.

 

[varesecrazy]

At 12 years old there is plenty of scope for any failed component to be swapped with a noncompatible replacement.

Not being a definitive MOT dash light requirement means this could've happened at almost any time..