Technical Newbie - Annoying Engine Rattle

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Technical Newbie - Annoying Engine Rattle

steve_m

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Hi,

i'm new to the forum had a quick look around and there seems to be loads of info. My Problem is on my gf's 1996 75 SX. When we brought the car the engine was nice and qiuet as i expected as it only had 45k on the clock. After about 6 months it developed a really loud rattle.

The noise sounds like its coming from the head. I have took the rocker cover off and could see some fine metallic fillings on the right hand side.

Has anyone heard of this before??

Thanks in advance for any help/info.
 

Ffoxy

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Sounds like a lack of lubricant to either the camshaft to me. Plenty Punto experts on here to be honest they will be of more help, but it sounds like a replacement hed job :-(
 
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steve_m

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I'm thinking that will be the likely outcome too. Need to start shopping around for a head. Thanks for the reply.
 

The Sultan

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first off how much oil is in your car

if thrers plenty take off top cover and start engine without it and see if the oil sprayer rail is spraying oil over the cam shaft be ready to turn it off if it does before you end up with to much of an oily mess shouldnt be to bad just a few oil spats to mop up with old rag

if not then you have an oil feed problem to the head possible causes blocked oil way or blocked oil filter

things you could try change oil and filter and see if things quieten down may be lack of servicing


can you give any more detail
did it start making the noise over a short period of time
do you know when the last oil and filter change was
 
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steve_m

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Oil and filter have both been changed since the rattle began. The noise got louder over a period of 4-6 weeks after we noticed it. Since then it has not got any worse and does'nt seem to affect the performance of the engine in any way. Once i get time i will take the cover off as you suggested and see what i can see.
 
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steve_m

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Finally got around to trying littlepip17's advice. Took the cover off and started the engine. There is absoultley no oil coming out of the oil rail so the cam is running totally dry and has been for 1000's of miles if this is causing the rattle!!

Has anyone else experienced this and if it is a blocked oil feed is it an easy fix? Ive ruled out a blocked filter as this has been changed since the rattle began.

Also may the cause be a faulty oil pump?? Or if this fails does the oil light come on due to lack of oil pressure?
 

The Sultan

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o dear

well it looks like the new oil you have in there has loosened some crud from somewhere in your engine and caused the blockage

it is most likely the blockage is in the small spider pipework on top running between the cam covers and there respective bolts best remove this and inspect it for a blockage it will just pull out of the head as it's just an interference fit try blowing through it if it is blocked well you'll just have to use whatever to unblock it like pins pipe cleaners boiling water and soap things like that

after you have removed it you could use some washers to replace the cam cap bolts and then when it's all tight without the pipework in place you should see the oil come up the front centre hole of the head if not there is a more substantial blockage somewhere but I'm sure it will

you will need the washers to replace the thickness of the pipe work unions if you know what I mean

don't run the engine for long like this as by doing so there is now no cam shaft oil feed you could pour some oil over the cam shaft to make sure you do no damage

if oil does come up the hole then it's just the spider that's blocked

and you can rebuild it after unblocking it and run the engine to visually inspect for oil coming out of it

after you unblock this stuff the engine has 2 chances the noise will go away when the oil returns

or the noise will stay

if the noise stays and the oil is coming through the pipes then I wouldn't worry about it it just means the solid tappets have worn and the clearance from them to the cam shaft has increased causing the tapping noise you can have these tappets replaced at a main dealer as they have the tools to do it without removing the cam shaft and can order the right parts to quieten your engine down

tappets cost about 5quid each and you have 8 that will need measuring and replacing with new ones of the right thickness to take up the clearance

should only take an hour to do the work

there's a chance you may have worn your cam shaft bearing's down to the point were they may fail completely but only time will tell could get a long screw driver and test for play in the cam shaft wile your in there should not be able to feel any play atall
 
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steve_m

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Thanks for the advice again. I'll try this tomorrow and see what happens.
 
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steve_m

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Back again!

i have removed the spider pipe and there is no oil at all coming out of the hole on the head. I then took off the filter and turned the engine over and oil is pumping up from the sump to the filter.

Therefore it appears that there is a blockage in the oil way between the filter and the head. Now i just need to find a way to clear the blockage?
 

The Sultan

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buy your self a compressor and stick a air line down it blow it out lol

if you stick a rod down here you will only get as far as the top of the block because the hole turns at a right angle at this point then turns again to go down the block about half an inch from were it comes out the head

engineoilfeed.jpg


I have highlighted were it turns so you know what I mean you can actually see the shadow of cleaner metal too

first thing I would try is definitely compressed air should do the trick wear some goggles thou or you may get a face full of oil from other oil returns when it finally blows

if this fails you just going to have to dismantle bits and stick pipe cleaners or similar articles in holes until you unblock it

oil pump would be the first thing to remove I guess

and maybe even the head might need to come off if it starts to get desperate

one other possibility may be a warn bearing else wear or a cracked oil way vus dumping oil pressure after the pump but this would surely bring on the oil light so not likely

maybe if someone else on here has had a similar problem they may like to shed some light on the final position of there blockage

did you give it a good rev when you started it without the spider pipes night have some partial flow maybe a little spurt
 

DanGil

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If its ran with no oil up the top and theres metal filings i'd say theres a good chance its in need of a rebuild, them filings will be circulating and eventually destroy your shells and oil pump.
 
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steve_m

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Yet again, thanks for all the help and responses to my problem :).I didn't rev the engine just let it tick over for about a minute so i'll try that tomorrow. Then ill start to tackle the unblocking!

It definitley seems my curse of 'not a straightforward problem' has struck again!
 

The Sultan

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you must be cursed never seen such a blockage on a fiat

then again any car will have problems if the oil is not changed often enough
just your luck you change the oil to do some good and it does bad

If its ran with no oil up the top and theres metal filings i'd say theres a good chance its in need of a rebuild, them filings will be circulating and eventually destroy your shells and oil pump.



there is already metal filings running round the engine from the damage in the first place and the only thing they could damage before they are filtered is the oil pump so no need to worry about the rest of the engine in fact they wont even damage the pump because at that point the go round it in suspension never getting caught in the pump it's just the way they work so i wouldn't start a rebuilt right away after you unblock it there's every chance it will run fine if something like cam shaft wears after this then you will need to replace some parts


one thing you should try undo the 2 small 8mm alan grubs screws like the sump plug but smaller if you will on the front of the oil filter housing looking at you when you look at the filter these are blocks blocking the internal drillings of the oil pump undoing them will clear out some mess from the pump

you can see them on the picture before
 
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DanGil

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Which is what I said, the oil pump pick up won't catch everything and neither will the filter.
 

The Sultan

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Which is what I said, the oil pump pick up won't catch everything and neither will the filter.

no the filter will catch everything but depending on head damage that will probs need replacing the crank and shells will be fine but the sump will need emptying and cleaning out



good news thou I been pondering over what your problem may be and I think I got it

in fact I'm completely sure what's wrong

the head gasket is in upside-down

you know I said before about the oil way between the head and block takes a right angle turn then turns back again down the block as shown in the picture above

well guess what when the hg is in upside-down this is completely blocked

but all the other functions of the hg work fine as they all still line up this is why someone could make the mistake

so if you take of your head and have a look before you remove the hg you will see this I'm sure also it should say alto (top) on the top

it's likely someone did the hg before you had the car and it has slowly run out of oil at the top and started tapping

you will need to remove and inspect the cam shaft bearings for visible scoring and such and if there is any may also need a replacement head

someone I work with had to repair someone car after this had happened and it had destroyed the head after just 100 miles

another good thing is if the hg has been done not so long ago should be easy to get all them bolt's undone
 
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steve_m

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regarding the upside down headgasket - the rattle has been there for a few thousand miles so do you think this could still be problem as you said the one you new about destroyed the head after only 100 miles?
 

The Sultan

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It won't catch everything, i've seen it happen first hand.

yes it will


anyway even if the pressure release valve in the end of the filter is released aluminium filings wont damage the crank much and when it's fixed it will be washed out anyhow only time will tell if the rest of the engine is damaged might as well give it a chance no point in striping down the thing for no reason so what's your point



well not destroyed but worn beyond parameters or reasonable repair costs meaning a hew head would be cheaper and easier

you will have to remove the cam shaft bearing caps and inspect for damage you will see scoring round them if they are to if not you could try reusing it but would have to put up with the tapping for ever more unless you changed the tappets

best bet for you really is replace the head from a second hand car scrapper's a good start or ebay then take yours off and replace with new head and head gasket (the right way up)

apparently it's quite common for people to put them in upside-down

I suppose not everyone can read Italian (alto)

have you recently bought the car and did it start the tapping after you bought it

might be able to get in touch with previous owner and ask if they have the recite for the head gasket change you could have the garage that did it repair for free maybe
 
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