Technical New Project 500 L

[gusgurner]

Hi all recent new member to the Forum and hope to glean lots of useful info from you all out there

Finally got my 1972 Fiat 500 L on the road after purchasing it in Bologna Italy and driving it most of the way back to Cannes in France. Had a real nightmare with paperwork to get it registered and having a CT (MOT). So all road worthy and running well.

Its still a bit tired looking but most things work and slowly hope to bring it back to as new condition. Have a few questions naturally with regard to various items.

Recently fitted seat belts in the rear so I can take my 4 year old son out supplied by Kwikfit seat belts UK very helpful company and work a dream now just strap the little chap in with no car seat as he is more secure without one.

After a few trips boke down last weekend with a lot of oil appearing on the oil filler cap. Obviously thought it was fuel or spark. Got it towed home as it refused to start and constrained by time. Put some clean fuel in and starts and runs like a dream now. I have a Haynes manual and went through the usual checks cleaned all the leads from oil but once finished converlessing after my hernia op will clean the carb and fuel system complete.

I plan to replace the screen wash manual pump all new bits from Ricambi Holland but how do you remove the part of the dash it is fitted too. Have had a good look but nothing obvious hence the question.

Have a steering lock but no key is this something I can get hold of using chassis number / spares number or is it possible to replace complete barrel.

Interior light doesn't work think it is the switch in the door as bulb ok any thoughts.

Looking forward to your comments and reading other posts.

Cheers

Gus

Cannes France

 

[tjmra]

But where are the photo's of your car? I think we all go into withdrawl if we don't see some.

Do not have my car handy at the moment but if it is the padded knee pads that are in the way, they are held on by bolts that go through the dash. Nuts can be undone from under the bonnet (boot???)

Good luck as I remember them being a bit of a bugger to get off.

(Chris, where are you when we need you?)


Joe R

 

[Bambino]

But where are the photo's of your car? I think we all go into withdrawl if we don't see some.

Do not have my car handy at the moment but if it is the padded knee pads that are in the way, they are held on by bolts that go through the dash. Nuts can be undone from under the bonnet (boot???)

Good luck as I remember them being a bit of a bugger to get off.

(Chris, where are you when we need you?)


Joe R

Hi Joe,

I'm still here but in the last week have had some serious computer issues - both the hard disk and the DVD drive on my laptop have crashed. Apart from the inconvenience, I lost very little but it did mean a new IDE drive and reloading an operating system from one of the usb ports. The only OS I can get on usb is Ubuntu linux, so I've been using it for the last couple of days though I can't yet print nor upload photos from my camera. Eventually I'll buy a new computer, but I'll have to save some money first.

So, enough of my problems.

Hey Gus,

Congratulations on the purchase and also on getting the car from Bologna to Cannes. Guts effort. Joe is right - we need photos.

As to your questions -

My 500F had the plunger windscreen washer replaced with a small 12V unit and wired to a switch under the dash though the original mount holes were still there. My car was also missing the knee pads - this is something I have to get sometime. From what I can see the plunger is quite close to where the pads would be, so, as Joe suggests, the pads will need to come off first, then the plunger. Doesn't look like an easy job though.

Clean fuel, fuel lines and carby will help a lot. The usual other things (timing, plugs etc.) should also be checked when you get time.

My car does not have a steering lock, so I can't help you there - sorry. Some of the owners of 500Ls on the list may be able to help.

When I rebuilt my car I replaced the door activated light switch and the light assembly itself and it still has a mind of its own. Sometimes it comes on and sometimes not - all without touching the switch under the mirror. Jiggling the door switch helps, so I guess its a bad earth despite mounting it with what I thought was a good connection. It's on the list of stuff to redo sometime.

Please keep us posted with your progress.

Regards,
Chris

 

[gusgurner]

Thanks for the help guys its actually my wifes car she has reminded me and she is the wizard with all things technical so will get to put some photo,s on. I've always wanted an old 500 and have not been dissapointed so far.

Yep it there were three nuts to undo behind the dashboard and were surprisingly easy to undoo and fitted the new washer unit. I thought about the electric option and thought less to go wrong with manual.

It was a bit of a mission getting from Bologna to Cannes especially so many motorway miles. Broke down outside Genoa due to Battery not charging properly thats when a garage changed the points, coil and condensor so know thats all in order, well hopefully not failed again after little use. I do however have new high tension leads and spark plugs which I will change and carry spares. Reading the Haynes Manual trouble shooting guide with a few tools and some spares should be able to get out of most situtions. So will clean everything fuel related.

When I broke down last time it was the oil on top of the rocker cover that was a surprise but reading the forum guess sometimes a problem with the oil vent. The old girl dosen't seem to burn any oil and all seems to be in order anything else to look for?

I'm sure I can sort out the electrical bits but not sure whether a complete rewire is needed have got a new fuse box as recomended by a garage. My side repeater indicators don't work the bulbs are good when removed and earthed on the body work so maybe some earthing issues.

It would really bennefit from a strip down repaint and rebuild like you guys but would also like to enjoy driving it a bit first ( when the wife isn't in it) and problem is where do you stop. If i did bite the bullet and strip it right down would run the risque of it being off the road for a long time. ( Also renovating the house and looking aftter the little chap all around work)

I've read a lot of your posts Chris and Joe a real help thanks will get my wife to put some photo's on.

Cheers and as they say in France "Bon courage !!"

Gus

 

[gusgurner]

Hi back again after Hernia op

Had a few problems with the old girl as before coffing and spluttering but . finally got parts to take carb off and give a good clean and put back.

However stupidly everything was running well and could go up to local village no probs all seemed well. As part of my latest order also ordered inline Bosch filter. Was a bit surprised when I came to fit it and cut fuel pipe no fuel ran out but put it in with tightened jubelee clips undid connection to carb and turn engine over to get fuel through all ok but still significant air in filter have since tried turning it upside down etc. but fuel in but still air. Connected it up engine fired up first time all ok ran for a while at home then went for a drive and engine conked out after less than a mile and have not been able to start it since. Fuel getting to carb I do have a spark if a bit weak but plugs dry.

What am I over looking how do i get rid of the air and what do i do next!!

Help please.

Cheers

Gus

Promise to post some pictures next time honest can still taste the fuel after trying to syphon it even after a curry.

 

[oopsadaisy]

Hi Gus

I wouldn't worry about the air in the fuel filter.

Ours does exactly the same.

As for the rough running...... you will find numerous threads on here on this subject, and the cause can be any one of dozens!

Frustrating I know, but the best way is a process of elimination.

However, they can sometimes be very illusive, and obscure.

For such a simple little engine, they can drive you crazy.

Bonne chance mon ami!

 

[Bambino]

As suggested above, a bit of air in the filter is not a problem and actually seems the norm - so long as you don't see a stream of bubbles entering from the tank end.

In my car, the filter is positioned between the end of the copper pipe from the fuel tank and before the petrol pump. Because of the relative positions of the fuel tank and the end of the fuel pipe, when you disconnect the fuel filter with the car on a flat surface, petrol should flow fairly freely with gravity. If not you may have a blockage upstream. Also, I'm told that some of the filters are unidirectional and are marked with an arrow indicating flow, though I've never seen one like this.

This question has arisen a bit lately and I'm not sure what others have done about their fuel starvation problems. When I rebuilt my car I replaced everything between the fuel tank and the fuel pump. I didn't inspect the fuel pipe when I removed it as it was spilt and ended up in the bin shortly after I fitted the new one, but I have heard that sediment/varnish build up can block or significantly narrow these little pipes especially if the car has been sitting for a while.

Try bypassing the fuel line up to the filter and let us know what happens.

Chris

PS: I imagine octane + curry makes for an interesting taste sensation ....

 

[gusgurner]

Thanks for the advice guys.

After replacing the fuel hose and stripping and cleaning the carb twice blew everything through with compressed air changed gaskets etc. still wouldn't start. I had a spark although a bit weak so much head sratching and frustration. Checked all Haynes procedures i.e filter cover off and fuel flowed freely so thought no probs before the carb checked for spark.

Time ran out on a major course at the moment lots of home work etc. So bit the bullet took it to the local garage and when he finally looked at it, it was the coil and the points which were replaced not so long ago he said they had shorted replaced them and all good. Well still get coughing and spluttering normally ok up hill back fires down hill so am thinking its maybe the pump. Also discovered its a 126 engine so 28 IMB carb but it starts first time and runs ok just rough and the wife is worried its un reliable so will order new fuel pump gaskets etc.

Any other pointers appreciated, though have been checking other threads and all the stuff to check but just a bit frustrated that its not so reliable.

Any help appreciated.

Yep wouldn't recomend the fuel curry mix not explosive just horrible burps.

Cheers

Gus :bang:

 

[oopsadaisy]

Well, we also have a 126 engine in our car and had very similar problems.

We went down the road of replacing bits one after the other, a process of elimination.

The final straw was when the engine gave out in the middle of one of the busiest and largest junctions in our part of the country!

We bit the bullet and invested in a 123 Electronic Ignition unit which does away with the points and condensor totally, and quite honestly we have never looked back.

Not cheap, but still worth every penny just for the reliability alone.

Check this thread out also:

https://www.fiatforum.com/500-classic/169499-1972-500l-cutting-out-problems.html

Keep us posted!

 

[lilgreencar]

On my 500 (also with a 650 engine...), the cure to the sneezing, backfiring, and leaning out of the mixture was to fix the leaking junction between the carb and the intake manifold. Air was getting sucked in here and leaning out the mixture...

Take the carb off, and inspect all 4 mating surfaces: carb to bakelite spacer, bakelite spacer to cylinder head. All 4 surfaces should be flat and smooth. I have found that carb specially will tend to warp slightly if overtightened. I used a flat file to flatten mine back up. Be careful to keep the metal shavings out of the carb! I also purchased a new bakelite spacer since mine was cracked.

Clean the mating surfaces thoroughly so that there is no grease or oil, and only use brand new gaskets to put everything back together. I have found that it is not a good idea to use gasket sealing compounds in this area since the smallest little bit of hardened gasket sealant can get into the carb and cause fuel delivery problems.

While you have your carb off, you may want to go over it and check for a leaking float (also a common problem) and clean all passageways and jets with carb cleaner.

-lgc

 

[Bambino]

We bit the bullet and invested in a 123 Electronic Ignition unit which does away with the points and condensor totally, and quite honestly we have never looked back.

Not cheap, but still worth every penny just for the reliability alone.

Ditto here. I got sick of the spluttering and replaced the distributor - now my little car is unstoppable

I also scoured the world for a better carburettor. Something with a deeper fuel bowl and an accelerator pump.

Next is the engine upgrade

They may be only small cars but they can empty your wallet very quickly ...
Luckily my wife is also a fan, otherwise I'd be sleeping next to the cars

Chris

 

[gusgurner]

Hi to All

Thanks for all the help and advice I just want to get the beige bullet a bit more reliable for my wife and the little man who loves going out in her.

I have ordered new set of gaskets for an IMB 28 although thoroughly cleaned twice will give it another go float did seam intact so maybe other gaskets or surfaces wil thoroughly clean and let you know. As part of the on going fuel isssue process.

I am a bit confused by the coil and points going again and as mentioned when I checked there was a spark. All seems in order and had a long chat with garage mechanic my french is pritty good but maybe I lost something in our discussion. My wife has been driving the car and complaining about a loss of power up hill and back firing down hill. I went for a drive this weekend and fine on the flat down hill all good even in traffic but up hill its as if the clutch is slipping and loosing power dramatically easing off the gas and even changing down helps but she's seriously not a happy bunny.

I appreciate it is a large outlay for a 123 electronic ignition but if it will lead to a certain amount of trouble free motoring then maybe worth saving for. My question is how easy is it to fit, what needs to be changed and is it easy to set up.

My other mode of transport is a Vespa Super 150 from 1966 so do appreciate all things Italian and beautiful its just a shame sometimes they were not a bit more reliable. I guess this is all part of the game.

Once again thanks for your help great forum respect to all you fellow 500 owners it certainly turns some heads buzzing through the streets over here.

Cheers

Gus

 

[oopsadaisy]

I appreciate it is a large outlay for a 123 electronic ignition but if it will lead to a certain amount of trouble free motoring then maybe worth saving for. My question is how easy is it to fit, what needs to be changed and is it easy to set up.

It is very easy to fit but does require a little care.

We went for the option of purchasing just the head (the bit with the electronics in).

You retain the existing distributor, and after removing the points, condensor, base plate and the old centrifugal advance and retard mechanism, fit the two magnetic slugs over the pins where the bob weights used to be.

They are intentionally quite a tight fit, but again with a little care, no problem really.

You then fit the head over the top of the distributor which is secured by three retaining screws.

You will also need to fit a dual ignition coil of the 'wasted spark' type. Some later 126's (notably the Polish built ones that still had the air cooled engine) had these fitted.

This means that both plugs now fire simultaneously, although only one of the two actually ignites fuel vapour.

You can set the ignition timing very approximately by following the instructions with the unit. Then once you can get the engine to start, I found the best way to get the timing right was to do it by ear - in other words you turn the distributor very gradually a few degrees at a time until the engine runs smoothly and evenly.

As I said before, worth every penny in my humble opinon and we have never looked back.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Bambino]

It is very easy to fit but does require a little care.

We went for the option of purchasing just the head (the bit with the electronics in).

Good luck and keep us posted.

I went the other way and replaced the entire distributor because the shaft on my old one was very worn. It's very easy to fit and set and like Oops above, I've been happy with the car ever since.

If your points, condensor, cap, rotor and coil are OK or recently replaced, the ignition system should function OK and I'd be going down this path before I shelled out for a 123ignition. Sure the old style Kettering system is antiquated by today's standards, but that's not to say that you can't make it work well.

Most of the problems with old cars stem from wear and tear on mechanical and electrical components. The original coils will be well and truly kaput by now and need replacing, the points may be badly pitted and the condensor knackered. The distributor itself may also be badly worn as evidenced by lateral or axial movement of the shaft in the housing.

I would think that the other major contributor to ignition problems in these cars is the proximity of the entire ignition system, in particular the coil, to the exhaust and the heat that it generates. Try to insulate what you can or, as is done on the 126s, move the coil to the other side of the engine bay.

Fix what you can fix within your budget and be willing to tolerate a little bit of stuttering and spluttering now and again.

Also, please post some more photos when you can. The bonnet strap is interesting

Regards from down under,
Chris

 

[gusgurner]

Thanks again for the advice.

I bit the bullet and got a 123 Ignition fitted today and beleive it is set up ok followed all the instructions it fired up ok and then turned until it ran smoothly at slightly faster idle. ( Not sure how to get this 100% right ).

Went for a drive and yep she runs a lot smoother but going up hill still get a loss of power even in second tried easing off the accelerator, choke didn't make any difference. Have I not got the timing right?

Filled up with petrol and still the same so now wondering about petrol problems. I have a set of gaskets but as it turned out to be the coil and points last time thought I would start there before changing everything and not knowing what did the trick. The plugs are blackish so the mixture definately not leaning out so don't think theres an air leak. I do plan to change the Champion plugs for NGK as this seems preferred.

I do plan to take the carb off again clean it again check surfaces are flat and replace with new gaskets. The float was ok when I last checked and fuel flowed freely so thought not the pump. Its as if the clutch is slipping but its not as the engine doesn't accelerate and the car just looses power. Its just a lack of power more pronounced up hill so under load.

Any pointers guys, what do I check and how. :bang:









wondering about the

 

[oopsadaisy]

Thanks again for the advice.

I bit the bullet and got a 123 Ignition fitted today and beleive it is set up ok followed all the instructions it fired up ok and then turned until it ran smoothly at slightly faster idle. ( Not sure how to get this 100% right ).

As I said, the LED on the unit will only give you an indication of when it is approximately correct. We found the best way was to simply turn the unit very slowly with the engine running until a smooth idle is achieved.

The plugs are blackish so the mixture definately not leaning out so don't think theres an air leak. I do plan to change the Champion plugs for NGK as this seems preferred.

The black plugs would certainly indicate an over rich mixture. I assume you have checked and replaced the air cleaner?

Other than that, do you know what carburettor is fitted?

It may well have been mucked about with, i.e. jets changed and so on.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[gusgurner]

Thanks Oopsadaisy

Followed instructions for the installation and your comments. Turned the unit with ignition key in until led on then led off. Then started the engine and it was a bit rough so moved it first clockwise then anticlockwise and the idle was a bit faster but really smooth so tightened the screws and went for a drive.

The carb is a IMB 28. I bought some carb cleaner both liquid for putting in the tank and spray to put in air intake but is it better to remove the carb and soak it in neet cleaner. Last time the only thing I changed was the needle valve as it appeared to have a slight bit of wear. I loosened the various jets and cleaned with compressed air then reassembled.

I also bought NGK BP6HS plugs reference another one of your posts regarding irratic running not fitted yet. The engine starts even needs less choke than before but loss of power up hill is the problem also seemed hot even after a short run. The weather is improving over here but its still not really hot. The air filter seemed clean but have a new one so will change it.

Also as mentioned previously there is oil deposit on top of the rocker cover is this usual?

Any other pointers??

Cheers Gus

 

[Bambino]

For what it's worth, I'll offer my 2c - bearing in mind that it's difficult to properly diagnose these types of problems when the car is half a world away

Because they are relatively low powered anyway, anything that degrades the output of these little motors will dramatically effect the performance, particularly under load (eg: on hills). A well tuned engine with clean spark plugs is mandatory for efficient performance. This is more so for these engines as they have only two cylinders, so a fouled or misfiring plug can effectively halve the output, that's ~20hp to ~10hp

The Weber IMB carburettors aren't fantastic but can usually be tuned to give reasonable performance.

Also, Opps is right about the distributor - on the 123s, the advance is electronically mapped so once you get the idle right by rotating the distibutor body, the rest should occur automatically. Set it up using the LED and correct curve, start, run and warm the engine and adjust it until the idle is smooth.

There are also many other things that will decrease engine power, particularly under load - worn rings, incorrectly adjusted tappets, poor spark from an old coil, bad leads, dirty carby etc. etc.

An oil stain under the rocker cover is quite normal as the tappets are splash lubricated. Oil on the outside is usually a result of an ill-fitting cap or worn gasket between the rocker cover and the head. These gaskets are cheap and easily replaced.

I don't know whether you've done this yet, but it'll be worth checking the centripetal oil 'filter' and giving it a good clean out plus changing the oil at the same time. Old, thick, viscous oil will certainly degrade the performance and may lead to overheating. As these motors are oil cooled as well as air cooled you need a good oil circulation as well as a properly ventilated sump. Check to make sure air is circulating past the sump as the tinware down there gets bumped and biffed over the years. The air passage can also fill up with oil, dirt, mud and other crap off the road.

Let us know how you go.

Chris

 

[gusgurner]

Thanks Ooops thanks Chris

Well finally now the old girl is running smooth as smooth can be its the clutch thats given way. As mentioned previously "it was as if the clutch was slipping" it was but I was letting off the power from previous spluttering experience. The last time I drove the beige bullet I gave it a lot more gas and yes the engine roared but the speed dropped off.

So needless to say I need to change the clutch so engine out etc. Whilst I am there may as well inspect the gear box as there is a definate whine "can run for ever like this" I have seen in many posts but makes sense if I am getting the engine out to check the gear box so last post under this subject will create a new post for subsequent posts.

But finally any advice on easy ways to change the clutch and what pointers for things to look for before putting it back. Shame I've got to strip the Vespa as well so busy time ahead.

Once again thanks for all your help and advice. Hopefully after this will be able to enjoy the summer and easy parking at the beach but will let you know.

Gus

 

[Bambino]

Gus,
There are no tricks to the clutch.
If you are removing the engine, take the engine/drivetrain out as a unit - it's very little extra effort and much easier to work on with it all out.
It will be a good opportunity to remove the tinware, give the engine a good clean and replace any leaking gaskets/seals.
I look forward to your new threads.
Regards,
Chris