Technical New car starting problems

[bluenoes]

We have just bought a 2000 SX multipla, the ideal choice for the wife's
daily car, after much searching and trying out Zafira's, Espace's, Galaxys
etc.

It has 2 owners from new, 79k miles and appears to be in great condition.

Hayley really couldn't wait to finally pick her car up on Thursday!

But, the problems started on the way home from Preston to Manchester after picking the car up.

I drove the car back, there was a sudden drop in power, and a light came on
the dash, indicating something to do with the fuel injectors. The car picked
up again more or less straight away, but the light stayed on.

We pulled onto the drive at home, turned the engine off and popped the
bonnet. Not really a lot to look at on these cars is there compared to older
cars.

Anyway, a call to the garage where we bought the car gave no answers, so
Hayley rang the AA.

Meanwhile, I found the problem. A wire had came away from the battery
positive, and was no longer in touch with the terminal. I am guessing this
may have gone to the starter motor, as before I put it back on, there was a
clicking noise but the starter wasn't turning over at all. The garage where
we bought the car had put a new battery on on Monday, and I'm guessing they made a mess of the wiring.

So, problem solved regarding starting.

Next step was to take out the cassette radio and pop Hayley's cd player in.

Oops. In it went and then off went all the dash board lights and the
indicators.

20 minutes later, that one is sorted when I found the offending fuse and put
the cd player in without shorting any wires!

Finally we thought, all done. The injector light had now gone out on the
dash board, peace at last.

So Hayley goes out for a drive that night, in a car she finally has some
heating in. Her old espace was like driving a portable igloo around!!

A couple of hours later, I get a phone call, she cannot start the car.

The code light is showing on the dashboard. I assume this means that the key is not being recognised by the immobilizer!!!

So, I drive across Manchester in my car with the spare key and we try that.

Nothing. The engine turns, but does not fire. The light "code" is showing on
the dashboard still.

A few expletives are said by us both, but maybe a minute later after leaving
the key in the ignition at "dashboard lights on" position, the code light
goes out and I try again, and the engine fires up!!!!

So, Hayley drives it home.

Now, when we get back, she tries using the original key to start the car,
but has a hell of a job getting the steering lock to disengage and at the
same time get the engine to turn over. Its as if she can disengage the
steering lock, but then, the key doesn't fire the engine, the dash is not
responding to the key!

However, the spare key has no such problems, and appears to work, for now at least...

What a day. We were hoping this was just a bad start, and friday
everything will fall into place and work how it should do.

There is a 6 month warranty on the car, but as with all these things, the
usefulness of it, we do not know.

I think the injector light is now off, but the glow plug light now appears
to stay on for a few minutes after the car has been started.

Simce Friday, Hayley has had to play around with the car in the ignition for up to ten minutes to get the thing started. Sometimes the code light doesnt go out, so the car wont start. Sometimes the glow plug light doesnt come on. Whatever it is its not doing what it should do.
The injector light is sometimes on, sometimes not on.
It really is becoming a right PITA.

So, before I ring the dealer up tomorrow and potentially lose my patience, can anyone suggest anything?

I was thinking of taking the car to a fiat dealer on tuesday as i have the day off, and getting them to look at it and see if the fault is covered under the warranty, if its not, then it goes back to the dealer and the fun starts as to who pays the bill etc.

Thanks in advance

Andy

Andy and Hayley.

 

[TinyUK]

It doesnt really matter wether or not the warranty covers these items, as your statutory rights mean that the car has to be fit for purpose, and if it wont start reliably, then it clearly isnt.
It might be worth phoning your local citizens advice centre or even trading standards so that they can provide you with info regarding your legal position and then phoning the garage and asking them (politely in the first instance) to repair the car as required.

 

[Pandabloke]

Absolutely Tiny, you've nailed it. I worked for Trading Standards as an enforcement officer in a past life. The Sale of Goods Act 1968 used to cover this. Goods, even when second hand must be of merchantable quality, as described and fit for any purpose made known.

The legislation has changed somewhat, but on the side of the consumer. It used to all be a question of reasonableness and in the end only the small claims or civil courts could make a decision.

What we are talking about here is Civil law, not criminal law.

However, as suggested give Trading Standards or Citizens Advice a call. BUT you must give the retailer an opportunity to correct any faults made known to him ifyou are willig to accept that. Again however, you are perfectly within your rights to reject the vehicle and ask for your money back, but how successful this may be is another matter!

Remember, the warranty or guarantee is above and beyond your normal civil rights. Any work done under a warranty that proves faulty used to be covered by a different piece of legislation, The Supply of Goods and Services Act (1972 ?)

You never know, the retailer may be more than happy to be given the opportunity to put the matters right.

Let us know how you get on, and I hope someone can give you a technical answer. Wouldn't just be a loose multiplug under the dash, or something would it? Just a thought.

Good luck with it all.

 

[reeseyboy]

I had problems with a Renault Laguna that I bought a couple of years ago. I spoke with the local council who informed me that the dealer is liable for anything going wrong with the vehicle withing the first 3 months of you buying it. My dealer changed sensors, suspension bushes, track rod ends; you name it, he changed it! The law is with you here but, as mentioned before, you have to give him the opportunity to correct the faults before you take it anywhere else, even if you use your garage and he picks up the invoice (with prior agreement obviously).

 

[bluenoes]

Many thanks for the advice folks.

I have just taken a video clip of it with my mobile. It actually took 6 mins of messing about before it finally started, and I still cant see a pattern to why it suddenly starts. I dont want to get to the dealers and it to start first time every time!! So the vid may come in useful.

I'm going to ring the dealer tomorrow and tell him about the problems. I can drive up there on tuesday as i have a day off work.

Hopefully I wont need them, but I'm going to write down a few of these terms you mentioned. Sale of Goods Act 1968, merchantable quality, fit for purpose etc

The car had an mot last monday, now yesterday, I had to dismantle the windscreen washer jets and clean them out as there was no water getting through. I thought that was an mot failure?

We are really hoping we can get this sorted out without too much hassle. We spent hours and miles and loads of diesel trying to find the right car, and we thought this was the one!

Hayley has enough stress at the moment, trying to look after our 10 week old twins and other kids, without worrying if her car will start when she goes out in it! She understandably doesnt want to drive up there on her own with the kids in the car at the moment.

Will keep you posted, thanks

Andy

 

[bluenoes]

Im not sure if I mentioned it is a diesel

 

[Pandabloke]

If anything else mot failable appears to be wrong, don't fix it. Contact the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) on 0870 6060440.

Look on the back of the MOT cert. Point number 5, Vehicle condition.

Within 28 days of test (or three months for rust and corrosion) if you feel the vehicle should not have passed and MOT test when it was tested then contact VOSA.

 

[JTDman]

I know someone who had a multi with allsorts of problems like yours and it turned out to be the battery , it was flashing up allsorts of codes and problems but i have to admit the code light was not one of them.
Id check by starting with the battery terminals as this was a problem to begin with, use a multimeter and see what the voltage is when the engine is running i think it should be about 13.7v anyone confirm?
If it aint charging properly then the onboard computers can be getting mixed signals from everything.

 

[Pandabloke]

I concur. From memory about 13.7 volts under load is a bout right.

 

[bluenoes]

Okay, quick update.

First of all, dont think its the battery. When we first test drove the car, the battery was as flat as a pancake, I let that one by as the car had been sitting for a while and was a diesel, and know it takes a decent battery to start one.

When we went to collect it, the dealer said that he had put a new battery on two days before so that he could get it to the mot.

Im now thinking that the issue wasnt with te battery, and that he had the same problems starting the car that we had, but didnt see what was happening, and flattened the old battery.....

Anyway, rang the dealer today, thankfully he seemed fairly sympathetic without me having to go for it

I explained to him whats been happening, and he said he would call me back once he had spoken to his auto electrician. I wasnt expectin to get a call back....

20 minutes later, he was on the phone saying it was either the immobiliser/fuel injection system or something to do with the ignition system and he needed us to take the car up there so he could get it on a diagnostic machine.

So, Im taking it up tomorrow on my day off, and have been told that we can have the old espace back as a courtesy car while he gets this one sorted

Not ideal I guess, and Hayley is not tooo impressed by that, but its a means to an end I guess.

Will be interesting as to what happens tomorrow. I dont intend leaving the car with him for days on end, and will trying to be nail him down to a day when we can re collect it. We waited for 2 weeks after paying the deposit to collect the car when things like this could have been sorted

Update to follow soon!!

Andy

 

[Pandabloke]

Well done, all good news so far me thinks. Interested to see where this one goes. Keep us updated. Good luck with it.

 

[JTDman]

But if the alternator has gone or is underpowered the car will drive until the batt drops down in power, but at least he is willing at this stage

 

[bluenoes]

Spoke to the dealer this morning.
He is telling me that the keys need re coding as the immobiliser is not accepting the code from the key.
He hads to ring Fiat and ask them for a pass code so that the keys can be recoded, if they wont give him the code, he will have to take the car to fiat.
Seems strange to me that both original key and spare key have the same problem?
Does this make sense to anyone, or am I being treated like a mushroom?
Thanks
Andy

 

[JTDman]

Its illegal for fiat to give the codes.......only in other countrys do you get the code cards with the magic numbers on it.

 

[bluenoes]

I guess thats why he hasnt bothered calling me back this afternoon then.
I can see this getting messy because I am rapidly losing patience with it all.

Andy

 

[JTDman]

Dont stress mate, it will all be fine im sure.
If what he does is not to your satisfaction then you can go down the legal route but im assuming its a small independant dealership in which case they prob have to get a mechanic or elecy guy to see it first, fiat will charge them an arm and a leg for anything! if they had known about the fault they would have tried to sort it before selling as its just gonna be a pain in the ass for them now so i wouldnt get to heavy just yet.

That being said there is plenty of multi's out there at the mo you could allways just ask for a refund allong with your cars docs.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

...Seems strange to me that both original key and spare key have the same problem?
Does this make sense to anyone, or am I being treated like a mushroom?...

No mushrooms.

When the car is new it is supplied with two keys, and each of the key fobs contains an electronic chip that has a code stored in it -- both keys have the same code -- and the car will only start if one of those 2 keys with a code matching the one stored in the car's computer/immobilser is used. If you (or a previous owner) has had battery trouble, its possible for the car's code memory to become corrupt, so the car and both keys need resetting to match each other again.

In theory, you can only get this done at a Fiat dealer, as they have access to the factory database with the codes logged against chassis numbers. You also have to prove that you own the car by taking along the registration documents. However, there are companies out there who (somehow) are able to reset the codes without going round this route.

So, no, you're not being taken for a ride. And also, you may find that whole issue stems from that 'battery flat as a pancake' moment. If attempts are made too many times to start the car when the codes don't tally (ie once corrupted by a very flat battery), the system 'locks out' the key, so far as I understand it, as it thinks an attempt is being made to steal the car.

Armed with this info, I'd suggest stepping back a bit from threats of legal action, explain the problem as outlined here to the garage you bought the car from, get a Fiat dealer to reset the keys (costs about £100) and have your seller cover that cost. That way, everyone's happy and the outcome will be amicable.

Pete

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

As a postscript to the above, does your Multi have remote locking (ie press a button on the side of the key to remotely operate the central locking)? If so, you can also get 'code errors' when the keyfob batteries are running low...

Pete

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

The car had an mot last monday, now yesterday, I had to dismantle the windscreen washer jets and clean them out as there was no water getting through.

Suppose they could just have been frozen?

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Sorry, me again -- should have read it all more carefully before replying.

Do I understand you right: once you'd put the wire back on the battery when you first got it, the car started 'correctly'?. And then, you changed the radio, and did something 'wrong enough' that the car blew a fuse? And since then, the car's had troubles starting...? Did more than one fuse fail (there's a separate one for the immobiliser, for example)

Is it possible that whatever blew the fuse damaged the immobiliser, or is having some other effect on the circuits? If you take out the radio you put in -- ie return the car to the state you bought it in -- does the key code problem go away?

It may not, but if I've understood the sequence correctly, there's a 'variable that's been altered', and when it comes to diagnosis, you need to go back through all the steps when tracing a fault

P
(last one for now, I promise!)