Panda (Classic) My Sisley, Panda 4x4 - division north

[Most Easterly Pandas]

I've done school boy error! The. Botom rad hose was getting warm NOT red hot as the top one. Took off the thermostat housing off and BINGO! So will buy new stat at local shop for bloody 15GBP - rip off. This combine with new coolant and rad fan switch should let me easly get to Masham.

Get a genuine OEM Fiat one from main dealer, only £5ish more, will include gasket and be a quality part. Too many duff thermostats on the market. It's one of the few things I'll only ever buy OEM.

 

[kolza]

I wish it was that easy with OE parts in my area, the nearest fiat dealer is over 40 miles away and i need it for tommorow the latest.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

I wish it was that easy with OE parts in my area, the nearest fiat dealer is over 40 miles away and i need it for tommorow the latest.

Desira GY on ebay, try them, plenty of Fiat dealer trading through eBay etc who will send for tomorrow delivery.

 

[kolza]

New stat in place, but still run hot- plan for tommorow is take the rad out and using garden hose flush it directly in revers direction. New pum and fan switch currently with ParcellForce but chances to have them delivered tommorow are small. Is 2* BTDC correct for 4x4? I'm not convince in the way how cchoke works- when fully pulled out revs are high, 3/4 revs slightly lower, 1/2 revs lower again, 1/4 revs high again, 0 choke- idle.

 

[kolza]

Do you want to hear the bad news or the bad news first?

Took out the suspected water pump, and aparently it is still in one piece, no signs of impeller being loose on the shaft!! Bugger!!!

As the current pump was aftermarket replacement part already it is not the same one as OE ones, cast iron impeller with 6 small "wings", no sign of flange 2/3 circ around the impeller.

Bad news is that the recently purchased one is exactly the same, and looks like this

Is it possible that the impeller running in oversized water pump housing comparing with the impeller size is not giving enough presure - chance not making water to circulate at required speed and pressure?

Next thing is that on the whole surface of the current pump / impaler there is 1mm (ish) thick black film - hard residue. From my knowlege it looks like the engine was treated with some sort of "liquid head gasket quick fix", as well there was some resin based filler and black silicone used on cylinder no.4 core plug - 35/40mm round small metal bowl pressed in engine block located at the front of the engine, when I was doing trial runs there was tiny coolant leak from this place.

All this leads me to make assumption that the core plug started to leak and somebody used liquid head gasket type seal to get it fixed, but the seal didn't do the job at all (chance resin filler and black silicon), what it done was blocking coolant chanels (chance sized termostat). I wish I was wrong now.

Realy don't know what to do next other then transplant 1242 P60 engine (after meeting Fozzybear I'm preety keen to do it).

There is no chance to buy new water pump with the "old type" design unless one of you guys have good second hand one.

This type of pump from the way how it looks should work a bit better

But it is still totaly differnt compared to genuine one.

Did anybody tried one of these?(described as grande punto 1.2, 1.4 8V) I'm still checking the fittment details.

 

[Bartpanda]

I have the same type of water pump on my 1242ccm trekking than your old and new one from the picture, with "six wings". It works well in my engine. Water pump from newer "fire" engines like grande punto etc has probably different type of "teeth module" on the pulley,and wider pulley. Symptoms of your problems with overheating look like poor water circulation because of the clogged pasages in the block, but also the whole internal surfaces of the engine block may be covered with calcit deposits from water and or from "magic liquids" like liquid head gasket and other sh..t.... it greatly reduces the ability to transfer the heat from the cast iron to the coolant I am affraid.

 

[kolza]

New pump in situ, new rad fan switch as well, no sign of any improvement.

Top rad hose is not gettinng "hard" due to lack of pressure in the system. Bottom hose from metal pipe to bottom rad is getting red hot pretty quickly but the hose from reservoir tank to metal pipe where "T" joint is and coolant in the tank remains cold. The rad it self was already renewed by previous owner, pretty recently- it is BEHR (made in china) so probably low quality but seems to be free of any obstruction.
I'm afraid replacement engine will be required. Suspension lift will have to wait. If i can get cheap aka. Not to expensive 999cc i will go for it, but now I can justfied 1242cc swap.

 

[panda panda]

Jacob I have a 999cc Fire engine I bought from Purple Haze recently. If you want it you can have it for what I paid for it (or a few hours labour on the blue one ) I believe it's been rebuilt but Kev can fill you in on any details about it, I bought it incase LVJ's was b*ggered. It's got most of the bits still on it so I was going to use it for spares - all I've taken off it are the plugs and leads.

 

[kolza]

Can I ask for little advice please.

I've been loorking around the head gasket today as I had a thought that one of the previous owners could fit the head gasket in the wrong position i.e. 180 degrees out.

My fellings were correct - the head gasket is aftermarket one, but I can't identified is it in correct position as the Formula'91 still have the original one so nothing to compare with.

Next to the engine temperature sensor close to where the cylinder head bolt goes in there is rectangular pattern on the engine block and matching rectangular tab on the head gasket - is it fitted correctly then?

Can somebody confirm that please.
Thanks

 

[firstcar-Y10]

Just reading back through your thread here, just how hot is this running? The only reference I can find you've made is that it was touching or straying over 90 after an uphill run, which is bang centre on the dial and pretty much where mine always runs. You're not just coming from a car where the old dial read a bit low to one where it reads a bit high here are you? Header tank shouldn't be getting a flow as such anyway, it's just there to allow for changes in level, and likewise there shouldn't be 'pressure' in the coolant system either, pressurisation is a bad sign for head gasket failure if anything. Are you actually getting any symptoms that say this is overheating or are you taking the word of the gauge, which is after all both Italian and electrical and so prone to mood swings?

 

[kolza]

Just reading back through your thread here, just how hot is this running? The only reference I can find you've made is that it was touching or straying over 90 after an uphill run, which is bang centre on the dial and pretty much where mine always runs. You're not just coming from a car where the old dial read a bit low to one where it reads a bit high here are you? Header tank shouldn't be getting a flow as such anyway, it's just there to allow for changes in level, and likewise there shouldn't be 'pressure' in the coolant system either, pressurisation is a bad sign for head gasket failure if anything. Are you actually getting any symptoms that say this is overheating or are you taking the word of the gauge, which is after all both Italian and electrical and so prone to mood swings?

I wish you were right Andrew.
After let say 15 min on idle the rocker cover is red hot, can't hold my hand on it for more than 1 sec, the temp gauge is showing more then 90*C and the temp is still increasing.
Bottom rad hose between metal pipe is red hot, but bottom rad outlet isn't.
There is no water flow to be felt in the top rad hose - compared with Formula'91.
The rad fan does not kick in at all.
When rad fan switch is bridged and fan kicks in - engine temp does not drop a single degree C.
Intake manifold is red hot as well.
Rad itself remains cool at the far side, after 2 min squezing top hose the far side of rad is getting warm not hot.
After my trial run over Olivers Mountain two of the four spark plugs had huge spit in the ceramic core.
Temp sensor Ohms at 90*C for both pandas are just couple decimal place out.

there must be something wrong.

 

[Alixcompo]

I have probably come into this thread too late and haven't read enough; BUT........

There have been report of water pumps with plastic impellers just sitting on a spinning shaft and not pumping any water at all.
OR;
You could try taking the thermostat houseing off and popping the stat out so that the water has a clear run.

Hope this helps

 

[Bartpanda]

When rad fan switch is bridged and fan kicks in - engine temp does not drop a single degree C.

Silly question, but it sometimes happens, does the radiator fan have the correct direction of revolutions? Does it push the air from the outside of the car{ from the front}, through the radiator to the inside of the engine bay{ to the back}? It is not the cause of your problems but always worth a check

The temp between 90 and 100 on the gauge when idling is perfectly ok.Should not go above 100 though on idle, never. I 've seen occasionally +110 deg celsius but it was when driving through the Bledowska Desert with 35 deg outside in July.{ btw few trips to the desert killed the old headgasket in trekking }

Try the Alixcompo's method, afterall it is just a 5 min job few hoses and two m6 nuts to undo to remove the thermostat.

You can put the headgasket the wrong way{ upside down}with locating sleeves still matching the holes in the block and the head, but then you'll block the oil passage for the cam lubrication, and you would hear that after just a few minutes of engine working with dry cam.

 

[kolza]

Thanks guys, i'll give a go tonight.

By the way - what is the correct gap in mm when the T-stat is fully open?
On the new T-stat i'm having approx. 6mm is that enough?

I might have a play with the old T-stat spring and cut one or two coils to reliefe the bi-metal thing.

PS. i've found 1242cc 8v (P60) mid mileage engine for £100 in Durham. hmmm

 

[firstcar-Y10]

PS. i've found 1242cc 8v (P60) mid mileage engine for £100 in Durham. hmmm

Durham you say

 

[andyholli]

Hmmm
£100 you say.
I might be tempted if you two aren't...

 

[firstcar-Y10]

Not tempted yet, but I've got stuff lying here for a bit of a rebuild so depends what I find when I take the head off.

 

[kolza]

Sorry guys, hands off!!!
I'm first in the 1242cc queue, at least till next friday.

So, as Bart/Andrew sugested i've took out the T-stat from the housing, top rad hose became much harder and I was able to feel the water flow. Rad fan kicked in (for a first time ever) at 100*C on the dial. Temp send must be reading high. T-stat moded coils spring will be fitted next.
Went for a spin ( 2 milies) on the way back car started to hesitate - badly on acceleratrion, and rear lights went off - probably earting issue.

Just noticed that when 4x4 is engage and car left on idle tje prpshaft start to develope resonance sound - any ideas?

Now i'm trying to establish what other punto parts are required for 1242cc carbed swap (i.e. clutch etc)

 

[kolza]

Next friday I'm collecting that 1242cc, it' s going to be full engine just without gearbox as they are just not interested in stripping the throttle body, etc.
I'll add post in Panda express as the folowing Saturday i'll be heading down the south near (M1 - J32).

 

[kolza]

Coinsidently, I'm bidding lightly used 1ton engine hoist in DURHAM.

That would be to easy... we'll see.
£80 my max bid.
Edit: ended up at £8 over

I'm glad my daily is an big estate...