Technical Major engine problems

[bl4desman]

Hi, I have a big problem with my car and I was hoping that someone may be able to help, or maybe had the same problem. I have a 2009 Abarth 500 esseesse, with full service history, using genuine parts and the correct oil.

It's developed a rattle at 2000rpm up. The rattle is metalic and sounds like something loose. There was no smoke and the car performed and drove well. The rattle came as soon as i touched the throttle and if I revved the engine, there was no noise as the revs came down. Originaly I thought that the noise was from the cam belt/aux belt. So the mechanic took the belt off and the noise was still there. All heat shields are ok, as is the exhaust manifold. However, when on the ramp, the noise was a lot louder from underneath and sounded like it was inside the sump. But noise travels.

So they took the sump off and the strainer is full of aluminum bits. Like fingernails, rather than glitter. So something is being gouged at. The big ends are ok, as is the crankshaft and the pistons look fine. Before I go any further, has anyone seen a similar problem with the T-Jet engine. Could a turbo issue drop aluminium into the sump? Or maybe a camshaft fault?

Any help is much appreciated.

 

[bugsymike]

Hi, I have a big problem with my car and I was hoping that someone may be able to help, or maybe had the same problem. I have a 2009 Abarth 500 esseesse, with full service history, using genuine parts and the correct oil.

It's developed a rattle at 2000rpm up. The rattle is metalic and sounds like something loose. There was no smoke and the car performed and drove well. The rattle came as soon as i touched the throttle and if I revved the engine, there was no noise as the revs came down. Originaly I thought that the noise was from the cam belt/aux belt. So the mechanic took the belt off and the noise was still there. All heat shields are ok, as is the exhaust manifold. However, when on the ramp, the noise was a lot louder from underneath and sounded like it was inside the sump. But noise travels.

So they took the sump off and the strainer is full of aluminum bits. Like fingernails, rather than glitter. So something is being gouged at. The big ends are ok, as is the crankshaft and the pistons look fine. Before I go any further, has anyone seen a similar problem with the T-Jet engine. Could a turbo issue drop aluminium into the sump? Or maybe a camshaft fault?

Any help is much appreciated.

Only guessing as not with you when it happens , but possibly a small end bearing/gudgeon pin on piston or even a broken piston or ring.
Stand to be corrected but damage from turbo I would expect to blow out the exhaust manifold rather than into sump. There is an oil return from turbo bearings, but I cannot see the " aluminum bits. Like fingernails, rather than glitter." that you describe coming from that.
When engine was running it may have been possible to stop that cylinder from firing to see if it affected the noise.
So all in all it does sound like an expensive engine rebuild or replacement.

 

[bl4desman]

Thank you for your help. It's been difficult because I can't find anyone with the same problem. I tried looking on English and Italian forums. So I ended up asking google gemini, which has been some help, but isn't 100% reliable. It was AI that suggested the turbo, but it also said to check the chain linking the camshafts, which it doesn't have. So I'm not sure what to believe.

Looking again at the photos of the aluminium bits, they are like curled like fingernails and lots of chunks of the same shavings, but snapped up. There is nothing like a fine glitter.

The garage are back on my car tomorrow, so I'll come back with any developments.

 

[bugsymike]

Thank you for your help. It's been difficult because I can't find anyone with the same problem. I tried looking on English and Italian forums. So I ended up asking google gemini, which has been some help, but isn't 100% reliable. It was AI that suggested the turbo, but it also said to check the chain linking the camshafts, which it doesn't have. So I'm not sure what to believe.

Looking again at the photos of the aluminium bits, they are like curled like fingernails and lots of chunks of the same shavings, but snapped up. There is nothing like a fine glitter.

The garage are back on my car tomorrow, so I'll come back with any developments.

Maybe garage can do a compression test and see if any cylinder low on power compered to the others or if noise changes by disconnecting individual spark plugs to isolate, but you feel power is as original?
My guess would be piston or rings, but it is just that.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Sadly agree with BugsyMike . It sounds like ring damage but you would expect smoke and lots of it. Small end and piston disintegreating sounds possible. I suppose you could just have disitegrating big ends and might get away with these. Normally you would have a lot of quite heavy knocking when accelerating. I cant thing of anything that would flake off other than a piston. I would be looking for a second hand engine I think. If there is a lot of metal in the sump its not likely to be economic to rebuild it with todays labour cost.

 

[bugsymike]

Sadly agree with BugsyMike . It sounds like ring damage but you would expect smoke and lots of it. Small end and piston disintegreating sounds possible. I suppose you could just have disitegrating big ends and might get away with these. Normally you would have a lot of quite heavy knocking when accelerating. I cant thing of anything that would flake off other than a piston. I would be looking for a second hand engine I think. If there is a lot of metal in the sump its not likely to be economic to rebuild it with todays labour cost.

Parts and labour costs are a problem these days.
Many years ago I drove a V6 Ford Zephyr flat out for several hours, the next morning the engine didn't feel as smooth as before, on inspection I had broken piston rings on two cylinders, I was able to get a pair of head gaskets, a sump gasket and piston rings for just two cylinders at our local Ford dealer, from stock and was back on the road again next day at minimal cost, not something likely these days.

 

[irc]

I've currently got 2 t-jet engines going into Pandas (long story, dont ask) so I'm interested in what you find.
I did have a look at one t-jet engine from a 595 which had some flakes in the sump (I eventually didn't buy it after dithering for a week or so) and the cause was (probably) damaged cam followers.
I didn't investigate further because I didn't buy it, but it definitely had a mechanical clicky/tappy noise which changed with engine speed/load. Although it didn't have a noticeable misfire under load which is apparently a usual symptom.

 

[The Panda Nut]

I've currently got 2 t-jet engines going into Pandas (long story, dont ask) so I'm interested in what you find.
I did have a look at one t-jet engine from a 595 which had some flakes in the sump (I eventually didn't buy it after dithering for a week or so) and the cause was (probably) damaged cam followers.
I didn't investigate further because I didn't buy it, but it definitely had a mechanical clicky/tappy noise which changed with engine speed/load. Although it didn't have a noticeable misfire under load which is apparently a usual symptom.

If its just cam followers and thats a good call, it would be an economic repair I think. Whether the metal flakes are alloy or steel is relevant here.

 

[bugsymike]

If its just cam followers and thats a good call, it would be an economic repair I think. Whether the metal flakes are alloy or steel is relevant here.

Magnet

 

[bl4desman]

Hi, Thank you all for your help. All of the pieces are not magnetic. Yes, it drove and performed fine and without any smoke or sign of an issue, apart from the rattle. We still haven't found the problem, but the mechanic is thinking that it's the mains. He took the cam cover off and all looked good. Likewise, there was no sign of metal in the turbo return pipe and the cartridge was ok. As it stands the engine is being taken out for further investigation.

I work for a 4x4 centre and we have a mechanic who is very thorough and may take over the job, but he isn't used to working on these engines. So, I'm looking for a manual to find all of the specifications for him, but I think i'm limited to one option of an online Haynes Manual.

I'll come back again when I know more

 

[bugsymike]

Hi, Thank you all for your help. All of the pieces are not magnetic. Yes, it drove and performed fine and without any smoke or sign of an issue, apart from the rattle. We still haven't found the problem, but the mechanic is thinking that it's the mains. He took the cam cover off and all looked good. Likewise, there was no sign of metal in the turbo return pipe and the cartridge was ok. As it stands the engine is being taken out for further investigation.

I work for a 4x4 centre and we have a mechanic who is very thorough and may take over the job, but he isn't used to working on these engines. So, I'm looking for a manual to find all of the specifications for him, but I think i'm limited to one option of an online Haynes Manual.

I'll come back again when I know more

Probably not relevant, but all I could find was the basic version in Auto Data 2012,for the 312A 2000 , I understand the Abarth is := Abarth 500 / 595 / 695 Engine Code 312A1000 Dual Mass Flywheel Only - TMC By CG Motorsport. so don't trust my details without further verification.
Maybe others on Forum can advise better.

 

[bl4desman]

Thank you for the information. Unfortunately, I purchased the Haynes manual which is nowhere near as good as they used to be. You pay to access a manual online and there is no information for working on the engine. So I purchased a better manual for models from 2007 to 2021 and it only has the Multiair engine in. So I'm not having much luck and I've spent £45.

Am I right to think that the American market Multiair engine has the same bottom end as the T-Jet?

 

[bugsymike]

Thank you for the information. Unfortunately, I purchased the Haynes manual which is nowhere near as good as they used to be. You pay to access a manual online and there is no information for working on the engine. So I purchased a better manual for models from 2007 to 2021 and it only has the Multiair engine in. So I'm not having much luck and I've spent £45.

Am I right to think that the American market Multiair engine has the same bottom end as the T-Jet?

I agree about Haynes Manuals, no where as good as in the past when they would go in to full detailed repairs. I think you could request a hardback manual as well as access to the online side last time I bought one it was for a Skoda Octavia, but no detail fro the Scout 4x4 version and very little of anything else.
If you have the Engine Series Number (not chassis/Vin or anything personal to your car just engine group) I may have more, but it is the main stream models that the trade Auto Data Manuals were best for.
Sorry I don't have American detail.

 

[puntodad19]

Parts exploded views can be very informative sometimes.

Haynes book of lies is of limited value, don't know about on line versions but suspect them to be limited.

None metalic items in sump oil, alloy or plastic ?

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Am I right to think that the American market Multiair engine has the same bottom end as the T-Jet?

It’s a very common engine that is shared with a lot of fiat/FCA group cars, you could look to the Punto or bravo which had the same engine in some models.
I’m sure fiat used to do a thing where by you could pay for access to an online manual, but that might just have been for professionals

 

[bugsymike]

It’s a very common engine that is shared with a lot of fiat/FCA group cars, you could look to the Punto or bravo which had the same engine in some models.
I’m sure fiat used to do a thing where by you could pay for access to an online manual, but that might just have been for professionals

You wouldn't happen to know the Engine Serial Number for those, to see if I had any details in my Auto Data Manual for the OP please?

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Not off hand no.

I did see an issue that had occurred with multiple abarth engines which was to do with the hydraulic tappets.

Even if they broke I am not sure how large parts would get into the sump.

I think that the op is getting hung up on what is wrong when really it’s time to start looking for a replacement engine.

It is very likely not economical to fix an engine where the sump is full of scrap metal

 

[bugsymike]

Not off hand no.

I did see an issue that had occurred with multiple abarth engines which was to do with the hydraulic tappets.

Even if they broke I am not sure how large parts would get into the sump.

I think that the op is getting hung up on what is wrong when really it’s time to start looking for a replacement engine.

It is very likely not economical to fix an engine where the sump is full of scrap metal

Certainly if metal bits floating around then potential for a lot more danmage.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Hi, I have a big problem with my car and I was hoping that someone may be able to help, or maybe had the same problem. I have a 2009 Abarth 500 esseesse, with full service history, using genuine parts and the correct oil.

It's developed a rattle at 2000rpm up. The rattle is metalic and sounds like something loose. There was no smoke and the car performed and drove well. The rattle came as soon as i touched the throttle and if I revved the engine, there was no noise as the revs came down. Originaly I thought that the noise was from the cam belt/aux belt. So the mechanic took the belt off and the noise was still there. All heat shields are ok, as is the exhaust manifold. However, when on the ramp, the noise was a lot louder from underneath and sounded like it was inside the sump. But noise travels.

So they took the sump off and the strainer is full of aluminum bits. Like fingernails, rather than glitter. So something is being gouged at. The big ends are ok, as is the crankshaft and the pistons look fine. Before I go any further, has anyone seen a similar problem with the T-Jet engine. Could a turbo issue drop aluminium into the sump? Or maybe a camshaft fault?

Any help is much appreciated.

Lots of sensible things being suggested here by Mike and others. As no piston skirt damage is visible - presumably by looking up the bores now the sump is removed? Did they use an endoscope to look in the top end of the cylinders through the plug holes? Although piston damage is still not eliminated by this I find myself wondering about crankshaft thrust washers? They might be chewed up and spat out to give metal debris like this? Try levering behind the front pulley and then pushing it rearwards. Any significant movement? should only be a few thousands of an inch. On the other hand I doubt if even severely damaged thrust washers will give a rattle/knocking noise? Mind you, if these bits have come down past the piston skirts then you'd think you'd see something looking up the bores? So If they've not come down past the pistons then did they come down from the top end via oil return pathways? Noises, as you say, do travel and sumps in particular, can amplify noises so maybe it's from the top end after all? Lots of other stuff you could "fantasize" about I suppose? but all maybe a bit pointless as additional charges will accrue attempting to find out?

However I think, unfortunately, Punto How To makes the most sensible suggestion in that, although it would be interesting - and if it were mine I'd want to know - it's likely all a bit academic. Whatever has happened, a complete strip down, thorough clean up, probably in a proper hot solvent bath minimum, and then a very careful examination of component parts other than the obviously damaged bits, for secondary damage and possible reuse. and all this before you even start to think about whether it's a candidate for a rebuild. Often, although it will satisfy your curiosity, this is expense which will be side stepped by simply sourcing a good used or professionally rebuilt unit.

As has been said above, an engine with a sump full of metal pieces is invariably an engine which is going to be best considered as scrap! Always a bitter "pill" to swallow I'm afraid and I have every sympathy for you.