Technical Lounge 1.2 oil in clutch advice.

[jonbill]

Hi -
I've not been on for a couple of years,but I need some advice please.

My wife's 58 plate 1.2 lounge apparently was making a grinding noise on Thursday last, and then later she couldn't select reverse or first.
I took a look today, and there's oil all over the underside, coming out between the clutch and the engine (and the clutch inspection hole at the top)

I'm thinking the crankshaft oil seal has failed or worse.

Can anyone confirm if this is likely? any other possible causes?

Assuming the worst, what's the best course of action?
Mend it - how much effort is that?
replacement engine?
sell it on as is?
trade it in at Fiat?

Thanks for any advice.

Jon

 

[306maxi]

Assuming that's the issue and your worried about the cost of a replacement engine have a look on ebay

 

[frupi]

As a matter of interest, how many miles on this 58 plate and what sort of servicing regime has it been subject to?

 

[Sweetsixteen]

It might pay to check the oil level on the dipstick before going further - if you haven't done that already? With oil coming out in quantity, it may give you an indication.
It's also possible that gearbox oil could be the culprit, but first things first?

 

[RussH]

Not being able to select 1st or reverse would maybe indiacate loss of gearbox oil.

If so you may get away with topping up the gearbox oil but of course you will need to remove the gearbox to replace the failed seal. If it is gearbox oil and you have to pay someone to remove/replace the gearbox I'd go for a 2nd hand gearbox off ebay/breakeryard.com/your local breaker yard.

It could be engine oil. Has it lost engine oil? If so, combined with grinding noise it doesn't sound good but if it hasn't lost oil pressure the engine should be OK.

Oil saturation to the clutch plate will make the clutch drag which will = difficulty selecting 1st or reverse. If so the clutch needs replacing.

 

[jrkitching]

You can easily tell if it's gearbox oil or engine oil by the colour - gearbox oil will look like new oil, engine oil will be black. Anyone with experience will also be able to quickly tell by the smell - but describing the difference in smell on an internet forum is beyond me tonight.

It could also be hydraulic fluid leaking from a failed clutch slave cylinder, which would also explain the difficulty in selecting 1st/reverse.

There's not a great deal of point discussing how best to repair or otherwise deal with this until you've got a proper diagnosis - a decent mechanic ought to be able to work out what's happened without dismantling half the car.

 

[RussH]

You can easily tell if it's gearbox oil or engine oil by the colour - gearbox oil will look like new oil, engine oil will be black. Anyone with experience will also be able to quickly tell by the smell - but describing the difference in smell on an internet forum is beyond me tonight.

It could also be hydraulic fluid leaking from a failed clutch slave cylinder, which would also explain the difficulty in selecting 1st/reverse.

Actually yes my money would be on hydraulic fluid. Easy to check. If so good news, a far cheaper/easier fix

 

[jrkitching]

Assuming that's the issue and your worried about the cost of a replacement engine have a look on ebay

They can seemingly be bought surprisingly cheaply (here's one); they're generally very reliable so I guess supply & demand means there are more salvage engines from written off 500's than there are cars with major engine problems.

Getting it fitted & working might be the costly bit.

 

[306maxi]

They can seemingly be bought surprisingly cheaply (here's one); they're generally very reliable so I guess supply & demand means there are more salvage engines from written off 500's than there are cars with major engine problems.

Getting it fitted & working might be the costly bit.

Of course, but disconnecting a load of connectors, pipes and etc and then undoing some bolts can't be thaaaaaaaat complicated

 

[jonbill]

Thanks - those prices are a pleasant surprise.
If I get an engine & box complete, I don't need to diagnose engine or gearbox before the swap

Would have been nice if it was hydraulic fluid, but sadly not. It's definitely oil.
It smelled like gear oil, and not black. However, engine oil was low. But then again I haven't checked the level for a few months so could be coincidence.

Wikipedia seems to be saying the 1.2 engine is the same from 2007 to 2013, so am I safe to pick up any 1.2 500 engine?

Can anyone point me to a guide for swapping the engine & box? or is it all straightforward? do the drive shafts just pull out etc?

Thanks everyone.

 

[jrkitching]

Thanks - those prices are a pleasant surprise.
If I get an engine & box complete, I don't need to diagnose engine or gearbox before the swap

Would have been nice if it was hydraulic fluid, but sadly not. It's definitely oil.
It smelled like gear oil, and not black. However, engine oil was low. But then again I haven't checked the level for a few months so could be coincidence.

Wikipedia seems to be saying the 1.2 engine is the same from 2007 to 2013, so am I safe to pick up any 1.2 500 engine?

Can anyone point me to a guide for swapping the engine & box? or is it all straightforward? do the drive shafts just pull out etc?

Thanks everyone.

It sounds like you know what you're doing so go for it. If it's definitely 'box oil, then you won't need to take out the engine and the job will be a lot simpler.

I'd start by downloading and studying the 500 elearn guide from the downloads section. The guide shows a number of special tools for supporting the major items during removal, but I'm sure you'll be able to improvise something.

We are here to help you if there's anything you're not sure about, so do come back if you've any questions - and please let us know how the job went, and how straightforward you found it.

And - just in case you need it - good luck!

 

[RussH]

Gear oil has a very distintive smell and as stated it'll be clean.

If you're certain it's the gearbox IMHO I'd just go for a gearbox/clutch swap. You'll avoid any potential engine management/immobiliser etc. compatability issues.

In my experience when an engine is removed it's complete butchery by neanderthal's, no matter what they tell you

 

[jonbill]

Thank you all.
I''ll let you know how I get on.

 

[frupi]

.....But then again I haven't checked the level for a few months so could be coincidence.

Thanks everyone.

I promise I'm not being flippant, but I guess you've answered my original post regarding servicing? If you really don't want to say, then I have no issue, but exactly when was the last time your vehicle was properly inspected/serviced and what mileage does it have on it? My reason for asking is that it could be a salutory lesson for those that don't service their vehicles when they should.

Concerning other posts about gearbox oil being clean after an undetermined period in the box. I have an issue with that in respect of the fact I changed the gearbox oil myself on my now long gone Primera at 100,000 miles (the first time it had ever been done). When I drained it, the gearbox oil was absolutely filthy black in colour.

 

[jrkitching]

Concerning other posts about gearbox oil being clean after an undetermined period in the box. I have an issue with that in respect of the fact I changed the gearbox oil myself on my now long gone Primera at 100,000 miles (the first time it had ever been done). When I drained it, the gearbox oil was absolutely filthy black in colour.

Possibly it had a molybdenum disulphide additive.

Gearbox oil on a manual car should not significantly discolour in service, except on those designs where the gearbox and engine share the same oil (most of the BL transverse engined cars used such a design). Conventional automatics may be different, as the oil will gradually become contaminated due to wear on the brake bands.

I always change gearbox oil at least every 50k & have never noticed any difference in colour between what came out and what goes in.

 

[frupi]

Possibly it had a molybdenum disulphide additive.

Gearbox oil does not significantly discolour in service, except on those designs where the gearbox and engine share the same oil (most of the BL transverse engined cars used such a design).

Possibly, after all, I am talking about a car that was built in 1995. I think I did the gearbox oil swap around 2005. I still have the leftovers of the gear oil I put in, in my shed, which I must get rid of! That oil is normal in colour. I distinctly remember the gearbox oil that came out of my old Primera as being quite gritty too! Though to be fair to the old Sunderland built beauty, it did carry on for another 100,000k before it was scrapped with just a clutch change.

 

[Sweetsixteen]

Basically, gearbox oil smells bad, whereas engine oil does not (and that expert diagnosis is completely dependent on the sensitivity of your hooter, so it's a very personal one) !

 

[jrkitching]

Basically, gearbox oil smells bad, whereas engine oil does not (and that expert diagnosis is completely dependent on the sensitivity of your hooter, so it's a very personal one) !

The 'bad' (apparently some folks like it ) smell is down to the very high sulphur content of extreme pressure oils.

 

[Sweetsixteen]

The 'bad' (apparently some folks like it ) smell is down to the very high sulphur content of extreme pressure oils.

True. And that, coincidentally, is one of the reasons why this country SELLS its North Sea oil and buys in oil on the spot market to replace it.
North Sea oil is very low in natural sulphur, so it can command a higher price than oils from other sources.
Daft world we live in!

 

[jonbill]

I promise I'm not being flippant, but I guess you've answered my original post regarding servicing? If you really don't want to say, then I have no issue, but exactly when was the last time your vehicle was properly inspected/serviced and what mileage does it have on it? My reason for asking is that it could be a salutory lesson for those that don't service their vehicles when they should.

I thought that was the point you were hoping to make but no, It has been serviced according to the schedule (18k miles!) plus an oil & filter change every 9k miles. It's still a good point though.

It has 66k miles, which is low by normal standards of course, but seems high for one of these it seems.