KA just driven

[brigguscoop]

I've now got used to the rear suspension of the 500. Initially it was disconcerting but I now know what to expect. It is better now the suspension has settled and the tyre pressures altered but it still doesn't make for a great handling car.

It will, however, corner quickly if not tidlily. I don't think we should confuse the ability to corner quickly with good handling though. Both the steering and the rear suspension sap confidence when pushing on.


I still think its fun but the basic setup makes it too compromised to be a drivers car. The upgraded rear setup doesn't have me rushing to my dealer to buy a new one.

 

[jimbro1000]

I'm sorry but that's just rubbish, complete rubbish.

The 500 can NOT be driven at speed with as much confidence as say a Clio because it handles like crap. You hurtle into a corner and because of the fact that the suspension is too stiff and the dampers are crap it bounces you sideways. Even at fairly pedestrian speeds the rear end can step out a little.

The Abarth is rated as fairly average by most decent magazines in terms of handling. It's nowhere near the Clio.

As for Ford being suspension masters. Name a list of their cars which is held up as being one of the all time best handling cars? The Puma Racing is held in high regard but the others are just average to decent. If you want to buy a hot hatch which handles well there'll be a list of French cars and Honda CTR's in front of the Fords.

The suspension on pre 2010 500's is just fundamentally badly designed.

It's compromised by the fact it's a beam axle
It's compromised by the fact that the springs and dampers are mismatched.
It's compromised by the fact that the beam obviously isn't stiff enough so they've had to stiffen up the springs to stop it being all roly poly.

So to summarise.

pre 2010 500 = crap suspension
2010 500's have better but still not perfect suspension
Abarth's still aren't Rennosport Clio's or even Twingo's
Ford are better than Fiat but still no Renno.

Sorry - I've driven 3 generations of clio sport on track in *real* anger and the Abarth really isn't that bad in comparison. What it takes is driving discipline to make the most of it. The clio lets you act like an imbecile (and most clio drivers fit that bill nicely) while the Abarth is more demanding but on the limit the *only* reason the clio is any quicker is a power and torque advantage. The one thing that lets the Abarth down, far more than the "handling" is the tyres - it is hard on them and the p-zero nero's can't take the punishment for any length of time. The clios on the other hand tend to cook their brakes.

I've read all of those articles from the motoring press and I know where they are coming from but I'm willing to bet that half of them can't drive for toffee and the other half haven't so much as sat in either car and just regurgitating the other journalist's opinions.

Fiat and Abarth aren't daft - they've listened to the feedback (Abarth especially) and the 2010 changes reflect that but the early suspension is not as bad as you are trying to make out. Yes it will still take some time to get it where everyone is happy, the Clios benefit from over ten years of continuous development on road and track. Comparing the clio suspension design with the 500 though is disingenious though - they are two different classes of car and the key element is that the 500 abarth is based a budget suspension approach. If it was really serious we would unequal length double wishbones at each corner but that is never going to happen. The macpherson strut at the front and trailing arm at the back is never going to turn the 500 into a lotus elise and will always be compromised in some way but the hysterical press junkies seem to think that compromised = crap while the reality is that it is a very different situation.

I am happy to admit that the handling of the Twingo "feels" better but there isn't that much in it - what we're arguing over here is tiny, tiny differences and the philosophy of the design...

 

[Ulpian]

Very intelligent observations.

 

[jimbro1000]

Getting back to Ford and suspension design - they were the very first to use computer modelling for their suspension and that for the GT40 in the sixties. At the time there was nothing, absolutely nothing that handled better. Every car made by Ford since that date has gone through some modelling. They've even managed to get leaf spring suspension working *very* well - it took about 50 years but they got there all the same.

The big problem is that we are confusing Ford's ability to design suspension with ultimate performance. They aren't making suspension to get their road cars around corners better than anyone else, they are concerned with stability and comfort first and foremost. Even the hot hatches they produce are a compromise between comfort and performance.

As for the CTR being a "good" handler I have to question if you've ever driven one in anger? The clio is definitely better, I would place the Abarth above the CTR as well. The main issue is a lack of consistency over different surfaces making things unpredictable and that is bad news. The worst offender for that is the Megane sport, over anything less than a perfectly smooth surface the car is a deathtrap on the road if pushed with the suspension throwing you all over the place with each ripple and change in camber.

 

[keeforelli]

Meh. When I test drove the ka before buying the 500 I realised the only way I would be happy with it would be to buy top of the range.

Did you notice any difference with the allegedly ford altered engine map? Can't say I did.

ooh...i started something here didnt i!

as for the engine map being different- yes, i did notice this- much quicker pick up in 1st and 2nd, so easier to 'get away' quickly at junctions in the KA, more responsive, and sounded quieter too....drove back to back when i gave KA back this morning and picked 500 up...perhaps something to do with different throttle mapping too?............steering also fantastic...lots of fun!!

as for maxis observation- other than the renaulsport tuned models- renault has no current reputation for handling other than being average and comfortable- and the renaulsport models are so well modified they arent really comparable with the car they are based on...

and if youre looking for iconic ford chassis' you would do worse than look at any focus from 98...im afraid the 'fords dont handle' argument isnt really going to fly- ive had loads of the recent models, back from 2000 to 2006..when they developed this reputation, and they really do...

the new megane i had?.....soft, comfortable, exceptionally woolly steering, and a lot of grip....compared to my focus?...nowehere near!

fords just feel different...good..

still love my 500 tho!...was just amazed how different it felt to its sister car....much more so than i noticed when i had a panda for a week...

 

[keeforelli]

ps mods why has this thread been moved?

its 500 related!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

[brigguscoop]

I don't think many Fiat chassis have been set up to cope with your typical British B road blast, but there is the challenge you see. There is still a great deal of satisfaction and fun to be had getting to know how to get the best from a simple and less than perfect set up. Its certainly not as bad as the press made out initially.

Strangely, my wife loves the bouncing and skipping rear of the 500 she sees it as a characteristic of the car and it reminds her of her old 126, which itself was slow, crude and yet great fun.

 

[306maxi]

ps mods why has this thread been moved?

its 500 related!!!!!!!!!!!1

It's a thread about Ford Ka's